I'm glad you are able to have some relief and comfort.
Seventh-day Adventists is a denomination that differ in a few areas than most other denominations, the most notable is the Sabbath day.
Example.
They are distinguished by their observance of Saturday/Sabbath "Day"
The commandment for the Sabbath is found in Exodus 20"8-11.
Notice here in Exodus 31:13-18.
who it was written to.
"Speak thou also unto the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout YOUR GENERATIONS; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Wherefore the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
If we're applying sound hermeneutics we must consider who this is written to and coordinate this with other scriptures.
Example.
James 2:10. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Also, Colossians 2:16-17.
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Jesus was truly a "friend of sinners" ( Luke 7:34) but was referred to as "Master" in both Colossians 3:24 as to who we serve and those addressing Him ( Luke 18:18). There are parables as well where the word is used as a thinly veiled analogy of Christ returning to reward or punish His subjects (last half of Matthew 25 for one). It is intersting that in the example of Christ being a friend of sinners (and tax collectors) that it was used in a derogatory way by the Pharisees as to those He kept company with. The passage in Luke 18:18 continues in the following verses to show someone whose heart truly wasn't entirely committed in this passage either to put his money where his mouth was; literally. The same can be said of the parable of the servants in the vineyard; there were unfaithful servants there who would suffer the consequences; and others who would reap the benefits of reward for being a TRUE servant of their master. John 14:15 comes to mind once again where love is shown by obedience on our part.
Naturally; when we live in a world where obedience to parents; commitment to others after making a marriage vow and a covenant agreement is established and overall lack of respect for authority has caused the spirit of the age to affect many who either deliberately want to excuse their conduct or don't know any better. To put it best perhaps here is a lengthy quote from C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity"
"Give me all of you!!! I don't want so much of your time, so much of your talents and money, and so much of your work. I want YOU!!! ALL OF YOU!! I have not come to torment or frustrate the natural man or woman, but to KILL IT! No half measures will do. I don't want to only prune a branch here and a branch there; rather I want the whole tree out! Hand it over to me, the whole outfit, all of your desires, all of your wants and wishes and dreams. Turn them ALL over to me... (out of space).
Daniel 9:24-27, in this prophecy, there are seventy weeks or 490 years determined unto Daniel's people and the holy city to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Have these 6 things been fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah, and the judgment of it carried out in 70 AD? If so, all of this prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.
1 To finish the transgression. To break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing. Psalms 32:1Isaiah 53:5-11Romans 4:14-15Galatians 3:18-19Hebrews 9:14-15.
2 To make an end to sins. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Matthew 1:21Hebrews 10:8-11John 1:291 Corinthians 15:31 John 3:5Psalm 32:1Romans 3:21-26Romans 8:3.
3 To make reconciliation for iniquity. Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6Isaiah 53:11Romans 5:11Ephesians 2:16Titus 2:142 Corinthians 5:18-19.
4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. In conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will. Isaiah 61:10-11Romans 3:21-26Romans 5:17-212 Corinthians 5:211 Peter 2:24.
5 To seal up the vision and prophecy. The greatest prediction, which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus. Daniel 9:23Matthew 11:11-15Mark 1:14-15John 5:36-40John 6:27Acts 3:18.
6 To anoint the most holy. The high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood of a sacrificed bull. Jesus our high priest with His own blood anointed the most holy not made with hands once and for all, forever. Hebrews 9:6-14.
The consistency of the Bible and uniqueness of Christ
In my last post I describe how the incident in John 9 set apart Christ as doing something new; that only God could perform.
This wasn't something the religious Pharisees could deal with; as the lengthy account of this incident makes painfully clear.
We also see Jesus' claims to be able to forgive sins as something unique; yet the many prophecies in Isaiah should have been enough to convince the Jews that this indeed was the true Messiah. There were references there to healing the blind; ministry reaching out to the Gentiles; as well as things such as Isaiah 61 that Jesus quoted and then cut off before the next verse got into the Second Coming and establishing His Kingdom on the earth at that time.
In the analysis of the "Old" and "New" covenants it is better to say that the New one developed the full meaning of the Old.
It certainly doesn't eliminate moral expectations in regard to murder; adultery and covetousness in the original 10 Commandments; we can look to Colossians 2:16 as to the exception of a mandate for "Holy days" as to not enforcing Saturday as the day of rest. This is a hotbed of controversy for some so I won't elaborate further. It is clear ceremonial laws changed; in regard to foods eaten the Cornelious episode makes that abundantly clear. ( Acts 10).
Christ became the sacrifice for our sins so no further sacrifice is needed. ( Psalm 40:6-8). Clearly the grace of the N.T. is seen in the Old Testament; particularly in regard to the sacrifice of a contrite and broken heart as seen in Psalm 51 and many other places. God Himself at some point abhorred the sacrifices due to the hypocrisy ( Isaiah 1:14). Many call Isaiah the Gospel of the O.T. and it is needed reading to understand prophetic things to come regarding Christ and God's call to the Gentiles.
Many places appear to show Christ before He came on earth physically; it is an interesting study in itself. So is the Godhead.
Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
Jesus existed in God's plan, Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and by Him were all things created Col. 1:16 my understanding is Jesus, was the first in God's plan of creation and everything was created by God, in and through the plan and purpose of Jesus. My understanding Jesus did not physically exist until the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 He was born of Mary the Son of God. the seed of woman. Genesis 3:15Matthew 1:20
My understanding is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not a person, Genesis 1:2. We see all the greetings are from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:71 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 1:2Galatians 1:3Ephesians 1:2Ephesians 6:23Philippians 1:2Colossians 1:2 and 6 more. The Holy Spirit not being included is a good clue the Holy Spirit was not considered a person by Paul and others at that time.
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
I believe the above answers this.
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
My understanding is God the Father created all, Genesis 1:1Genesis 1:31Proverbs 16:4Isaiah 45:18Nehemiah 9:6.
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifests in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
Scripture does not support Modalism I have never considered this and do not know anything about it.
In the Old Testament it also says that if a child swears to his parents then they must be stoned to death. So do we have to do that? Of course not, do we? The commandment in the New Testament is in Colossians 3:21, "Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged". If you spank your kids often then you will turn them into angry kids and at the end they will definitely loose their courage in life. But you can take that "rod" figuratively. Just think, what does God do with us when we are disobedient? Firstly He does nothing apart from teaching us. He is very patient with us and gives us a lot of time. Then when He sees that after a long time we still keep in our ways then He allows hard things to come into our lives to make us repent. But at the same time He keeps assuring us of His love to us, He doesn't want us to believe that He doesn't love us, we will be discouraged. So do the same. When you realize that although you have kept talking to your kids and gave them a lot of time to obey and still they don't seem to be in a mood to obey, move to the next step. Make their lives difficult. Take away something they love, say a toy. Keep them in their room for some (sensible) time and don't allow them to go out. Keep them away from their friends for a while (but keep talking to them). Anything really. It is you that will find out the right way. Every kid is different from any other and needs a diferent approach, like God doesn't do the same with all of us. Also a different approach is needed for different ages. But keep your hands away from them. They will never forget it if you spank them. And they will keep telling you that when they grow up and you will keep feeling guilty and an insuffient parent when you realize the mistake you have done. If your husband keeps spanking your kid then you must stand against that. You must not accept it for any reason. Find a way to talk and persuade your husband, ie show him the scriptures etc.GBU
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. ( John 5:17).
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. ( Colossians 3:23-24).
These two verses demonstrate to us that work in the secular or "spiritual" realm is to be done with all of our might (following the principal of Ecclesiastes 9:10). Christ actually states that in some cases such as John 4:38 that they have reaped what others have sown. John 4 discusses the conversion of the Samaritan woman (woman at the well) and her evangelistic campaign. In this case she did the sowing and the Disciples reaped the benefits. It is interesting to think that she was the first evangelist listed even before the Disciples were sent out two by two (I think). Even Jesus didn't have to work that hard in that respect; such gratitude for being saved by sins was shown in other women such as Mary Magdeline. Would we all approach the Great Commission with such eagerness.
When it comes to our everyday jobs I am grateful in my situation even with just part time work being all that I can do with other responsibilities that I am surrounded by people that work hard. I work doing food prep in a high school kitchen; and especially with intense State Inspection coming those who would want to mess about won't remain very long. Having supervisors that I respect in each of the other surrounding schools in the District where we are sent on occasion is an added bonus; along with the lady from one of them that joined our team today. There are a number of passages discussing employer and employee relations (in many cases servant and master analogy). Our work ethic isn't a substitute for sharing God's Word; but an opportune moment won't earn any respect if we don't have a foundation of trusted service for the weeks or months before such a conversation can occur.
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead (to sin) (my emphasis) and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."
Gal 5:24
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
Heb 2:11
"For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren," (How does gradual sanctification bring us one with God?
1 Peter 2:24
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being DEAD TO SIN, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
1 Peter 4: 1-
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."
"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die."
The next verse describes how we were yet sinners; or what Colossians 1:21 states in even harsher terms as "enemies of God."
Next time you hear someone talking about how loving we all should be ask them if they would be willing to die for their enemies who hate them. We hear a lot of talk these days about the love of God; usually reduced to some mushy sentimentality and hardly differentiated from human passions. First off; it is only a half truth to go around talking about God's love only when it happens to coincide with pleasant or pleasurable circumstances for people on earth. Yes God loved us when we were yet sinners but provided provision through the Son as His ONLY method to reconcile the enmity between us and Him due to indwelling sin. God cannot look upon sinful man and love Him in the state he is in but DESPITE the fact that he is in a lost state with a heart that is; according to Jeremiah 17:9 "desperately wicked". God's METHOD is by having the Son; for we either have the Son and therefore know God or we know neither (see 1 John 23:24). This involves the Father and Son coming to "dwell within us" ( John 14:23 which also implies the Holy Spirit sealing us until the day of redemption ( Eph. 4:30).
Those who would view Jesus as someone that is primarily promoting some sort of sentimental affection either is Biblically illiterate or willfully deceived. He talked about being a sword to divide families ( Matthew 10:34-36); rebuked the Pharisees harshly a number of times; destroyed the Temple moneychanger market at least twice; and challenged those who would feign to be His disciples but whose heart wasn't in it. He even rebuked His own disciples. This is demonstrating that true love in His own life was obeying God; and we are called to do the same for Christ ( John 14:23).
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16.
The gospel is power!
Good advice is not worth the snap of the fingers unless there is power to see it through.
There is three steps to our Salvation.
Justification.
Sanctification.
Glorification
Justification is "an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner's faith in Christ." We are justified, or declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation.
Sanctification is "the process by which Christians are set apart for God from the rest of the world, or the process by which Christians are made holy." Progressive, or experiential, sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one's life. It is the same as growing in the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity.
Glorification is "God's final removal of sin from the life of the saints so that they stand faultless before Him in glory in eternity"
As Christians, we were justified when we confessed Christ and believed ( Romans 10:9), we are sanctified as we grow in holiness through the work of the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:11-32; Galatians 5:16-24, and we will someday be glorified when we are resurrected into eternal life ( Colossians 3:4).
Justification is a one-time event, sanctification is a process, and glorification is a future event.
If you are a Christian, you are guaranteed all three steps.
Again, thank you for your comments Ronald, & I can see that this discussion will need to end. But before that & to respond to some of your comments here, Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Jesus (in His pre-Incarnate Form) was involved in creation, & not simply a Thought or Word in God's Mind. 'For by Him were all things createdall things created by Him & for Him He is before all things & by Him all things consist'. For Paul to make a declaration as this & then we should force a meaning that Jesus was not the Creator & Sustainer within the Godhead, would exceed the limits of my comprehension. I'm sorry. As well, the use of 'Him, He' (Gk. auto), tells us that we are reading of a Person (albeit within the Person of God), Who is creating & not simply a Thought in God's Mind.
And I selected John 17:5 as a very apt verse to show how clearly Jesus Himself considered the Glory He once had with God, Who is now His Father through the incarnation; that Glory He laid aside for the sake of becoming human & thus for the "suffering of death" (for God indeed cannot die). I planned to also bring in the other Scriptures that I had given a few days earlier, for your interpretation & understanding, but used this one as a 'case-in-point' to learn of your thoughts. To Page 2.
Thank you for your reply, yes, Genesis 3:15 tells us He will come by the seed of a woman, and that is exactly what we see happen in Mary. My understanding of John 1:1-5 is John's prolog at the start of his gospel like Genesis 1:1 is a prolog to the rest of Genesis 1. John starts with, In the beginning.
I see this beginning as the coming of the Messiah/Christ the beginning of Jesus's ministry because in John 1:6, John goes to John the Baptist as the witness of the one who was to come, the Light that darkness did not comprehend. This is the start of Jesus's ministry when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit and God made Him the Messiah/Christ, Acts 2:36.
Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24, His role or ministry was to fulfill the law and the prophets in confirming the new covenant by His death and resurrection from the dead to pay the price for our sins. Daniel 9:27 is also about the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry but that is another topic. Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesied to come in Daniel. As I have discussed with Chris my understanding is Jesus was the beginning of the plan of God and like John 1:10 it is through Him not by Him.
Jesus, God' Son is first in God's plan of creation, and everything was created in and through Him and Jesus was begotten in the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Colossians 1:20. I know you may also not agree with that but that is how I understand, it is God the Father who is the creator.
The light was the word of God that dwelt in Jesus, the glory of the Father that dwelt in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 4:6.
Apologies Ronald, I had to attach this Page 3 onto Page 1, as there was no Reply button on Page 2.
We can believe that Jesus is spoken of as that Light (by the text clearly given), but John goes back to the Word of vv 1-3; and that Word of God was made fleshJohn baring witness of Him. Bringing all this together, I can see that the Word of God was in Jesus (as it should be), but the clear word is more than that: the Word of God was Jesus. We know that Jesus, as the Word of God, was instrumental in the creation of the worlds & all things ( Colossians 1:15,16) and He is before all His creative Work & He holds them all together ( Hebrews 1:3). Given what we read in these verses, one would have to re-word the verses to make them mean anything else than the Word of God becoming flesh - or else, none of it makes any sense & would be rejected as meaningless. You've written about 'Jesus receiving God's Word at His Ministry', but how would you explain the following verses in John 1 that show God's Word, not just indwelling the Man Jesus, but becoming the Man ("God manifest in the flesh": 1 Timothy 3:16)? Blessings.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
I thank you so much for discussing this and thank you Giannis. I am not the best at explaining my understanding.
I know John 1:1 we see it differently but what beginning makes the difference, it was the word of God in Jesus as Jesus never said it was His words but the Father's words, and God was manifested in Jesus John 1:142 Corinthians 5:19. In Colossians as well as Ephesians that is similar My understanding Paul is talking about the risen Christ as faith in Christ, redemption that is in Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, the risen Jesus.
I read what you replied to Momsage on this and I hope you are not considering me in the Gnostic camp. My understanding comes totally from Scripture and the Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in Scripture, it was hundreds of years after the deaths of the apostles, as in Matthew 28:19 is taken as the Trinity and many churches abide by this today, but nowhere in Scripture do we see anyone baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, what we see is only in the name of Jesus?
I know you will not agree but to say Jesus is God this verse stands out to me 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30Romans 15:61 Corinthians 8:62 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 11:31Ephesians 1:3Ephesians 1:17Ephesians 3:14Ephesians 4:6Colossians 1:31 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34John 14:28John 17:3John 20:17Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
Sorry brother Giannis for placing my comment to your old comment here, as I was unable to get a Reply button on your recent one on Colossians 1:16-20.
So thanks for explaining this difficulty in knowing what Paul was actually trying to convey. People living at that time could of course come back to Paul & ask him to be more specific in his meaning - we can't, but we do have all the Scriptures to help us know what he was conveying to us, believing that he (& the other writers) did not report conflicting teaching. Knowing that all Scriptures support each other perfectly so it can only be our misunderstandings that creates difficulties for us when bringing them together.
And so when we get back to Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature", & in line with the following verses about the work of creating done 'through'Him/'by' Him, then clearly the firstborn of all creation (i.e. that Jesus was also a created Being) cannot also be the One 'through' Whom God created all things. One could ask, 'why couldn't God Himself create all things rather than creating a 'firstborn' through Whom Creation came into being?' I understand that you or your congregation understand 'firstborn' as the first to led others into the New Birth, though when I see 'pases', it seems that it refers to 'all, the whole, every kind of', & not specifically to those to be In Christ. Anyway, thanks again for the explanation.
Re: Colossians 1:16. 'en auto'. In my Lexicon, I do read it as you do, that 'in Him' (en auto) is given. Though looking at 'en', other prepositions are also provided, viz. on, at, by, with. Without getting too deep into something I'm unqualified in (leave that with Giannis or Jesse), the explanation given for using 'en' for this verse is, "of that in which other things are contained and upheld, as their cause and origin: i.e., in God. In God is found the cause why we live, Acts 17:28; in Christ, as the divine hypostatic, in him resides the cause why all things were originally created, Colossians 1:16 (the cause both instrumental and final as well)." Very wordy for sure, but the way I read it, is that if we see Colossians 1:16 as "For (in) him (Jesus) were all things created", then 'in Jesus (the Divine Hypostatic = the underlying reality or substance), God has allowed all created things to find its origin & cause'. Then could it be understood that if Jesus was the origin & cause of creation, would the KJB be wrong by its translation, "For (by) him were all things created"?
And finally, Hebrews 1:3,4. I can agree with you in part: that He was "made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". Clearly, this comparison of Jesus to the angelic host was as a result of His Coming & completed Work of Salvation - and of course rising into Glory & seated at the Father's right Hand. And so the Angels of God worship Him (v6). So, now to the word 'made'. You wrote, "He was made, means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do." Again, we appeal to the Greek (& to our brethren here), the word here is 'genomenos' (having become/come into being/happen). Could our KJB have used a word ('made') that does not correctly reflect the original? Loosely, 'made' or 'becoming' can be similar in usage, if made is not meant as 'created' but as 'changed in position/rank'. Onto Page 3.
Once again Ronald, thank you for your responses & don't feel pressured to respond for lack of time or opportunity - I too have to deal with some daily mundane tasks that rob me from giving more time here on these pages.
Re: John 1:1. The 'beginning' that John refers to here, is in my understanding, of eternity past where time is irrelevant. If the rest of this passage was not given, I could suppose that 'beginning' might apply to whatever one deems as a best fit. But the following words qualify that 'eternity' is spoken of: this Word was both God & with God (Who of course resides in eternity). The subject here is the Word, & this Word (from God & John already understands this Word to apply to Jesus he is now witness to) was instrumental in creation, holder of Life, which is to be the "Light of men". If no more was written, then we could still apply the 'Word' to the Mind of God & His utterances, & to no one or anything else. But John clarifies that this 'Word was made Flesh & dwelt among us". So, with all this detail, I can only believe that God's Word was in eternity as God is, & from that Word within God, the worlds were created; & then at the right time, God took His Word & brought forth One that would reflect Him in the flesh & perform His Will for mankind.
Re: Colossians 1:15-18. "Firstborn", as stated in another post, I understand the word to apply to the rank, pro-eminence, & privileges that rightly come to a firstborn child and not to Jesus being the firstborn (or beginning of creation). I don't see this reference here applying to a 'new creation/re-birth' or any position within all of God's Creation, simply because the whole passage shows this firstborn being the Creator of all things, for Himself, & He holds them all together. If this is not so, then God created a Creator to create these things, which then places John 1:1-14 into question where God's Word was already a characteristic of God & not received at a later time. To Page 2.
Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.
One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.
Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18John 3:35John 5:26-27John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.
I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.
Thanks Giannis for sharing in this. I can agree to Romans 8:29, " that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"; that clearly 'prototokos' here refers to Christ being our 'Forerunner' leading those who are saved by His Blood, into the new Birth He has provided for us; i.e. we follow Jesus, Who is the Firstborn among us.
Yet, with Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature" (or, creation), doesn't seem to imply that believers are the object; though you (or, your Church) feels it does: "that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)". It's interesting that 'creation' is used here, which doesn't seem to easily bring Christ's Church into its meaning.
That was interesting about the usage of 'arche', that it could be applied to rulers, principalities, etc. I checked your reference Revelation 3:14, and though the application of 'arche' is defined as "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause", your other references ( Colossians 1:16 & Ephesians 3:10) certainly apply to 'principalities/rulers'. And other references are given in support of this: Luke 12:11, Titus 3:1, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:10, & others. So thank you for giving us more to consider in this matter.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.
'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
God the Father granted Christ all authority on heaven and earth which sets forth the ultimate example of how God worked to reward the perfect obedience of Christ. It also goes against Satan's offer to worship him to have such authority. ( Matthew 28:18; Matthew 4:9).
One may question how Christ; who Himself brought all of creation into existence would have such a destiny. ( Colossians 1:16-20). In that situation; one may say that He was the Person to do the work that the Father had planned; and His agent as it were was the Spirit of God (hovering over the waters as it states in Genesis 1:2).
We realize in this that no servant is greater than his master. ( John 15:20). We all are nothing without Him; yet He will likewise exalt the humble with positions to rule and reign with Christ in the Millennium. In some sense we can say that Christ emptied Himself so that He could be our High Priest suffering in all ways but without sin. ( Heb. 4:15). As the second Adam He was able to keep from the temptations of the devil to fall unlike Adam; as well as fulfilling the law perfectly which no man could do. ( 1 Cor. 15:45-47).
It is hard to get our mind around these facts; that He who created all things would start from conception as a helpless babe and end as a sheep to the slaughter ( Isaiah 53:7); the Lamb of God which will forever be ascribed to His Name. Of course all of us who are saved are adopted sons; ( Ephesians 1:5) part of the eternal lineage of the rightous (as contrasted with the earth dwellers in Revelation 11:10).
Christ is returning as conquering king. He alone trods the winepress ( Isaiah 63:3). He alone brings forth the TRUE one world government of peace and rules in righteousness; impartially judging as many verses in Isaiah testify. Some verses can be taken symbolically but to not take Revelation 19 literally or somehow think Christ already returned in some mystical way is heretical thinking (see 2 Tim. 2:18)
Happy Sunday. Some verses that jumped out at me...
1 Timothy 3:16
Colossians 1:14-20
John 14:6
Isaiah 48:12, Revelation 22:13
My interpretation: Jesus is a big deal. Probably bigger than we realize and He loves us and died for each of us that we may choose to follow Him. God bless.
Next I wish to speak of how God' character is "QUINTESSENTIAL"
Which means the highest, purest, most perfect, supreme manifestation, example, incarnation, type of the essence of something, the express image.
Jesus is the quintessential expression of God.
Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High."
Colossians 2:9 "For in Him dwelleth ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
John 14:9 "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father,, and how saith though then: Show us the Father?
Jesus is God in the flesh. He is the Son of the Father eternally and one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Godhead is three Persons in one Godhead. Not three gods, but one. Jesus became man to save us and to show us a fleshy person of the Godhead, that is in union with the Godhead as the Word made flesh. Jesus is the perfect manifestation of true God. There is no other who can truly and perfectly represent God to us. Jesus is the only one who came from within the Godhead to earth to live as a man for us. The Holy Spirit is the only Spirit who came from within the Godhead to come to live in us. When Jesus came to earth, the Father and the Spirit were in Him yet still separate Persons from Him. And when the Holy Spirit lives in us, the Father and the Son lives in each of us, yet are still separate Persons. There are not multiple Fathers and Sons and Holy Spirits inhabiting every believer that every has lived. There is only one. God who is everywhere present all the time and specifically present in every believer. This is a mystery, but it is real and true. God has told us so in His Word that is truly true.
In heaven, if Jesus is the only one we see of the Godhead, we will truly be seeing the Godhead.
Thanks for responding.
I'm glad you are able to have some relief and comfort.
Seventh-day Adventists is a denomination that differ in a few areas than most other denominations, the most notable is the Sabbath day.
Example.
They are distinguished by their observance of Saturday/Sabbath "Day"
The commandment for the Sabbath is found in Exodus 20"8-11.
Notice here in Exodus 31:13-18.
who it was written to.
"Speak thou also unto the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout YOUR GENERATIONS; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Wherefore the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
If we're applying sound hermeneutics we must consider who this is written to and coordinate this with other scriptures.
Example.
James 2:10. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Also, Colossians 2:16-17.
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
See part 2.
Jesus was truly a "friend of sinners" ( Luke 7:34) but was referred to as "Master" in both Colossians 3:24 as to who we serve and those addressing Him ( Luke 18:18). There are parables as well where the word is used as a thinly veiled analogy of Christ returning to reward or punish His subjects (last half of Matthew 25 for one). It is intersting that in the example of Christ being a friend of sinners (and tax collectors) that it was used in a derogatory way by the Pharisees as to those He kept company with. The passage in Luke 18:18 continues in the following verses to show someone whose heart truly wasn't entirely committed in this passage either to put his money where his mouth was; literally. The same can be said of the parable of the servants in the vineyard; there were unfaithful servants there who would suffer the consequences; and others who would reap the benefits of reward for being a TRUE servant of their master. John 14:15 comes to mind once again where love is shown by obedience on our part.
Naturally; when we live in a world where obedience to parents; commitment to others after making a marriage vow and a covenant agreement is established and overall lack of respect for authority has caused the spirit of the age to affect many who either deliberately want to excuse their conduct or don't know any better. To put it best perhaps here is a lengthy quote from C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity"
"Give me all of you!!! I don't want so much of your time, so much of your talents and money, and so much of your work. I want YOU!!! ALL OF YOU!! I have not come to torment or frustrate the natural man or woman, but to KILL IT! No half measures will do. I don't want to only prune a branch here and a branch there; rather I want the whole tree out! Hand it over to me, the whole outfit, all of your desires, all of your wants and wishes and dreams. Turn them ALL over to me... (out of space).
Let us do the same.
Hey brother just one last thing to consider.
Daniel 9:24-27, in this prophecy, there are seventy weeks or 490 years determined unto Daniel's people and the holy city to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Have these 6 things been fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah, and the judgment of it carried out in 70 AD? If so, all of this prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.
1 To finish the transgression. To break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing. Psalms 32:1 Isaiah 53:5-11 Romans 4:14-15 Galatians 3:18-19 Hebrews 9:14-15.
2 To make an end to sins. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Matthew 1:21 Hebrews 10:8-11 John 1:29 1 Corinthians 15:3 1 John 3:5 Psalm 32:1 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 8:3.
3 To make reconciliation for iniquity. Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Romans 5:11 Ephesians 2:16 Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.
4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. In conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will. Isaiah 61:10-11 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 5:17-21 2 Corinthians 5:21 1 Peter 2:24.
5 To seal up the vision and prophecy. The greatest prediction, which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus. Daniel 9:23 Matthew 11:11-15 Mark 1:14-15 John 5:36-40 John 6:27 Acts 3:18.
6 To anoint the most holy. The high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood of a sacrificed bull. Jesus our high priest with His own blood anointed the most holy not made with hands once and for all, forever. Hebrews 9:6-14.
Jesus said it in John 19:28-30.
God bless,
RLW
In my last post I describe how the incident in John 9 set apart Christ as doing something new; that only God could perform.
This wasn't something the religious Pharisees could deal with; as the lengthy account of this incident makes painfully clear.
We also see Jesus' claims to be able to forgive sins as something unique; yet the many prophecies in Isaiah should have been enough to convince the Jews that this indeed was the true Messiah. There were references there to healing the blind; ministry reaching out to the Gentiles; as well as things such as Isaiah 61 that Jesus quoted and then cut off before the next verse got into the Second Coming and establishing His Kingdom on the earth at that time.
In the analysis of the "Old" and "New" covenants it is better to say that the New one developed the full meaning of the Old.
It certainly doesn't eliminate moral expectations in regard to murder; adultery and covetousness in the original 10 Commandments; we can look to Colossians 2:16 as to the exception of a mandate for "Holy days" as to not enforcing Saturday as the day of rest. This is a hotbed of controversy for some so I won't elaborate further. It is clear ceremonial laws changed; in regard to foods eaten the Cornelious episode makes that abundantly clear. ( Acts 10).
Christ became the sacrifice for our sins so no further sacrifice is needed. ( Psalm 40:6-8). Clearly the grace of the N.T. is seen in the Old Testament; particularly in regard to the sacrifice of a contrite and broken heart as seen in Psalm 51 and many other places. God Himself at some point abhorred the sacrifices due to the hypocrisy ( Isaiah 1:14). Many call Isaiah the Gospel of the O.T. and it is needed reading to understand prophetic things to come regarding Christ and God's call to the Gentiles.
Many places appear to show Christ before He came on earth physically; it is an interesting study in itself. So is the Godhead.
Part 2 Trinity discussion
Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
Jesus existed in God's plan, Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and by Him were all things created Col. 1:16 my understanding is Jesus, was the first in God's plan of creation and everything was created by God, in and through the plan and purpose of Jesus. My understanding Jesus did not physically exist until the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 He was born of Mary the Son of God. the seed of woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
My understanding is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not a person, Genesis 1:2. We see all the greetings are from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:7 1 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 1:2 Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 1:2 Ephesians 6:23 Philippians 1:2 Colossians 1:2 and 6 more. The Holy Spirit not being included is a good clue the Holy Spirit was not considered a person by Paul and others at that time.
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
I believe the above answers this.
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
My understanding is God the Father created all, Genesis 1:1 Genesis 1:31 Proverbs 16:4 Isaiah 45:18 Nehemiah 9:6.
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifests in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
Scripture does not support Modalism I have never considered this and do not know anything about it.
See part 3.
In the Old Testament it also says that if a child swears to his parents then they must be stoned to death. So do we have to do that? Of course not, do we? The commandment in the New Testament is in Colossians 3:21, "Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged". If you spank your kids often then you will turn them into angry kids and at the end they will definitely loose their courage in life. But you can take that "rod" figuratively. Just think, what does God do with us when we are disobedient? Firstly He does nothing apart from teaching us. He is very patient with us and gives us a lot of time. Then when He sees that after a long time we still keep in our ways then He allows hard things to come into our lives to make us repent. But at the same time He keeps assuring us of His love to us, He doesn't want us to believe that He doesn't love us, we will be discouraged. So do the same. When you realize that although you have kept talking to your kids and gave them a lot of time to obey and still they don't seem to be in a mood to obey, move to the next step. Make their lives difficult. Take away something they love, say a toy. Keep them in their room for some (sensible) time and don't allow them to go out. Keep them away from their friends for a while (but keep talking to them). Anything really. It is you that will find out the right way. Every kid is different from any other and needs a diferent approach, like God doesn't do the same with all of us. Also a different approach is needed for different ages. But keep your hands away from them. They will never forget it if you spank them. And they will keep telling you that when they grow up and you will keep feeling guilty and an insuffient parent when you realize the mistake you have done. If your husband keeps spanking your kid then you must stand against that. You must not accept it for any reason. Find a way to talk and persuade your husband, ie show him the scriptures etc.GBU
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. ( Colossians 3:23-24).
These two verses demonstrate to us that work in the secular or "spiritual" realm is to be done with all of our might (following the principal of Ecclesiastes 9:10). Christ actually states that in some cases such as John 4:38 that they have reaped what others have sown. John 4 discusses the conversion of the Samaritan woman (woman at the well) and her evangelistic campaign. In this case she did the sowing and the Disciples reaped the benefits. It is interesting to think that she was the first evangelist listed even before the Disciples were sent out two by two (I think). Even Jesus didn't have to work that hard in that respect; such gratitude for being saved by sins was shown in other women such as Mary Magdeline. Would we all approach the Great Commission with such eagerness.
When it comes to our everyday jobs I am grateful in my situation even with just part time work being all that I can do with other responsibilities that I am surrounded by people that work hard. I work doing food prep in a high school kitchen; and especially with intense State Inspection coming those who would want to mess about won't remain very long. Having supervisors that I respect in each of the other surrounding schools in the District where we are sent on occasion is an added bonus; along with the lady from one of them that joined our team today. There are a number of passages discussing employer and employee relations (in many cases servant and master analogy). Our work ethic isn't a substitute for sharing God's Word; but an opportune moment won't earn any respect if we don't have a foundation of trusted service for the weeks or months before such a conversation can occur.
1 Corinthians 3: 16-17
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
God Bless :)
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
God Bless :)
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead (to sin) (my emphasis) and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."
Gal 5:24
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
Heb 2:11
"For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren," (How does gradual sanctification bring us one with God?
1 Peter 2:24
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being DEAD TO SIN, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
1 Peter 4: 1-
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."
Romans 8:7 states:
"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die."
The next verse describes how we were yet sinners; or what Colossians 1:21 states in even harsher terms as "enemies of God."
Next time you hear someone talking about how loving we all should be ask them if they would be willing to die for their enemies who hate them. We hear a lot of talk these days about the love of God; usually reduced to some mushy sentimentality and hardly differentiated from human passions. First off; it is only a half truth to go around talking about God's love only when it happens to coincide with pleasant or pleasurable circumstances for people on earth. Yes God loved us when we were yet sinners but provided provision through the Son as His ONLY method to reconcile the enmity between us and Him due to indwelling sin. God cannot look upon sinful man and love Him in the state he is in but DESPITE the fact that he is in a lost state with a heart that is; according to Jeremiah 17:9 "desperately wicked". God's METHOD is by having the Son; for we either have the Son and therefore know God or we know neither (see 1 John 23:24). This involves the Father and Son coming to "dwell within us" ( John 14:23 which also implies the Holy Spirit sealing us until the day of redemption ( Eph. 4:30).
Those who would view Jesus as someone that is primarily promoting some sort of sentimental affection either is Biblically illiterate or willfully deceived. He talked about being a sword to divide families ( Matthew 10:34-36); rebuked the Pharisees harshly a number of times; destroyed the Temple moneychanger market at least twice; and challenged those who would feign to be His disciples but whose heart wasn't in it. He even rebuked His own disciples. This is demonstrating that true love in His own life was obeying God; and we are called to do the same for Christ ( John 14:23).
The gospel is not good advice.
However, the gospel is much more than good news!!
The gospel is "the power of God UNTO salvation".
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16.
The gospel is power!
Good advice is not worth the snap of the fingers unless there is power to see it through.
There is three steps to our Salvation.
Justification.
Sanctification.
Glorification
Justification is "an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner's faith in Christ." We are justified, or declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation.
Sanctification is "the process by which Christians are set apart for God from the rest of the world, or the process by which Christians are made holy." Progressive, or experiential, sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one's life. It is the same as growing in the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity.
Glorification is "God's final removal of sin from the life of the saints so that they stand faultless before Him in glory in eternity"
As Christians, we were justified when we confessed Christ and believed ( Romans 10:9), we are sanctified as we grow in holiness through the work of the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:11-32; Galatians 5:16-24, and we will someday be glorified when we are resurrected into eternal life ( Colossians 3:4).
Justification is a one-time event, sanctification is a process, and glorification is a future event.
If you are a Christian, you are guaranteed all three steps.
THE GOSPEL IS "THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION!
God bless.
Again, thank you for your comments Ronald, & I can see that this discussion will need to end. But before that & to respond to some of your comments here, Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Jesus (in His pre-Incarnate Form) was involved in creation, & not simply a Thought or Word in God's Mind. 'For by Him were all things createdall things created by Him & for Him He is before all things & by Him all things consist'. For Paul to make a declaration as this & then we should force a meaning that Jesus was not the Creator & Sustainer within the Godhead, would exceed the limits of my comprehension. I'm sorry. As well, the use of 'Him, He' (Gk. auto), tells us that we are reading of a Person (albeit within the Person of God), Who is creating & not simply a Thought in God's Mind.
And I selected John 17:5 as a very apt verse to show how clearly Jesus Himself considered the Glory He once had with God, Who is now His Father through the incarnation; that Glory He laid aside for the sake of becoming human & thus for the "suffering of death" (for God indeed cannot die). I planned to also bring in the other Scriptures that I had given a few days earlier, for your interpretation & understanding, but used this one as a 'case-in-point' to learn of your thoughts. To Page 2.
Thank you for your reply, yes, Genesis 3:15 tells us He will come by the seed of a woman, and that is exactly what we see happen in Mary. My understanding of John 1:1-5 is John's prolog at the start of his gospel like Genesis 1:1 is a prolog to the rest of Genesis 1. John starts with, In the beginning.
I see this beginning as the coming of the Messiah/Christ the beginning of Jesus's ministry because in John 1:6, John goes to John the Baptist as the witness of the one who was to come, the Light that darkness did not comprehend. This is the start of Jesus's ministry when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit and God made Him the Messiah/Christ, Acts 2:36.
Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24, His role or ministry was to fulfill the law and the prophets in confirming the new covenant by His death and resurrection from the dead to pay the price for our sins. Daniel 9:27 is also about the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry but that is another topic. Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesied to come in Daniel. As I have discussed with Chris my understanding is Jesus was the beginning of the plan of God and like John 1:10 it is through Him not by Him.
Jesus, God' Son is first in God's plan of creation, and everything was created in and through Him and Jesus was begotten in the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Colossians 1:20. I know you may also not agree with that but that is how I understand, it is God the Father who is the creator.
The light was the word of God that dwelt in Jesus, the glory of the Father that dwelt in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 4:6.
God bless,
RLW
Apologies Ronald, I had to attach this Page 3 onto Page 1, as there was no Reply button on Page 2.
We can believe that Jesus is spoken of as that Light (by the text clearly given), but John goes back to the Word of vv 1-3; and that Word of God was made fleshJohn baring witness of Him. Bringing all this together, I can see that the Word of God was in Jesus (as it should be), but the clear word is more than that: the Word of God was Jesus. We know that Jesus, as the Word of God, was instrumental in the creation of the worlds & all things ( Colossians 1:15,16) and He is before all His creative Work & He holds them all together ( Hebrews 1:3). Given what we read in these verses, one would have to re-word the verses to make them mean anything else than the Word of God becoming flesh - or else, none of it makes any sense & would be rejected as meaningless. You've written about 'Jesus receiving God's Word at His Ministry', but how would you explain the following verses in John 1 that show God's Word, not just indwelling the Man Jesus, but becoming the Man ("God manifest in the flesh": 1 Timothy 3:16)? Blessings.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
Part one
I thank you so much for discussing this and thank you Giannis. I am not the best at explaining my understanding.
I know John 1:1 we see it differently but what beginning makes the difference, it was the word of God in Jesus as Jesus never said it was His words but the Father's words, and God was manifested in Jesus John 1:14 2 Corinthians 5:19. In Colossians as well as Ephesians that is similar My understanding Paul is talking about the risen Christ as faith in Christ, redemption that is in Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, the risen Jesus.
I read what you replied to Momsage on this and I hope you are not considering me in the Gnostic camp. My understanding comes totally from Scripture and the Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in Scripture, it was hundreds of years after the deaths of the apostles, as in Matthew 28:19 is taken as the Trinity and many churches abide by this today, but nowhere in Scripture do we see anyone baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, what we see is only in the name of Jesus?
I know you will not agree but to say Jesus is God this verse stands out to me 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
See part 2
Part 2
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10 Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30 Romans 15:6 1 Corinthians 8:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 4:6 Colossians 1:3 1 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34 John 14:28 John 17:3 John 20:17 Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
God bless,
RLW
So thanks for explaining this difficulty in knowing what Paul was actually trying to convey. People living at that time could of course come back to Paul & ask him to be more specific in his meaning - we can't, but we do have all the Scriptures to help us know what he was conveying to us, believing that he (& the other writers) did not report conflicting teaching. Knowing that all Scriptures support each other perfectly so it can only be our misunderstandings that creates difficulties for us when bringing them together.
And so when we get back to Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature", & in line with the following verses about the work of creating done 'through'Him/'by' Him, then clearly the firstborn of all creation (i.e. that Jesus was also a created Being) cannot also be the One 'through' Whom God created all things. One could ask, 'why couldn't God Himself create all things rather than creating a 'firstborn' through Whom Creation came into being?' I understand that you or your congregation understand 'firstborn' as the first to led others into the New Birth, though when I see 'pases', it seems that it refers to 'all, the whole, every kind of', & not specifically to those to be In Christ. Anyway, thanks again for the explanation.
Re: Colossians 1:16. 'en auto'. In my Lexicon, I do read it as you do, that 'in Him' (en auto) is given. Though looking at 'en', other prepositions are also provided, viz. on, at, by, with. Without getting too deep into something I'm unqualified in (leave that with Giannis or Jesse), the explanation given for using 'en' for this verse is, "of that in which other things are contained and upheld, as their cause and origin: i.e., in God. In God is found the cause why we live, Acts 17:28; in Christ, as the divine hypostatic, in him resides the cause why all things were originally created, Colossians 1:16 (the cause both instrumental and final as well)." Very wordy for sure, but the way I read it, is that if we see Colossians 1:16 as "For (in) him (Jesus) were all things created", then 'in Jesus (the Divine Hypostatic = the underlying reality or substance), God has allowed all created things to find its origin & cause'. Then could it be understood that if Jesus was the origin & cause of creation, would the KJB be wrong by its translation, "For (by) him were all things created"?
And finally, Hebrews 1:3,4. I can agree with you in part: that He was "made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". Clearly, this comparison of Jesus to the angelic host was as a result of His Coming & completed Work of Salvation - and of course rising into Glory & seated at the Father's right Hand. And so the Angels of God worship Him (v6). So, now to the word 'made'. You wrote, "He was made, means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do." Again, we appeal to the Greek (& to our brethren here), the word here is 'genomenos' (having become/come into being/happen). Could our KJB have used a word ('made') that does not correctly reflect the original? Loosely, 'made' or 'becoming' can be similar in usage, if made is not meant as 'created' but as 'changed in position/rank'. Onto Page 3.
Once again Ronald, thank you for your responses & don't feel pressured to respond for lack of time or opportunity - I too have to deal with some daily mundane tasks that rob me from giving more time here on these pages.
Re: John 1:1. The 'beginning' that John refers to here, is in my understanding, of eternity past where time is irrelevant. If the rest of this passage was not given, I could suppose that 'beginning' might apply to whatever one deems as a best fit. But the following words qualify that 'eternity' is spoken of: this Word was both God & with God (Who of course resides in eternity). The subject here is the Word, & this Word (from God & John already understands this Word to apply to Jesus he is now witness to) was instrumental in creation, holder of Life, which is to be the "Light of men". If no more was written, then we could still apply the 'Word' to the Mind of God & His utterances, & to no one or anything else. But John clarifies that this 'Word was made Flesh & dwelt among us". So, with all this detail, I can only believe that God's Word was in eternity as God is, & from that Word within God, the worlds were created; & then at the right time, God took His Word & brought forth One that would reflect Him in the flesh & perform His Will for mankind.
Re: Colossians 1:15-18. "Firstborn", as stated in another post, I understand the word to apply to the rank, pro-eminence, & privileges that rightly come to a firstborn child and not to Jesus being the firstborn (or beginning of creation). I don't see this reference here applying to a 'new creation/re-birth' or any position within all of God's Creation, simply because the whole passage shows this firstborn being the Creator of all things, for Himself, & He holds them all together. If this is not so, then God created a Creator to create these things, which then places John 1:1-14 into question where God's Word was already a characteristic of God & not received at a later time. To Page 2.
Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.
One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9 Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.
Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18 John 3:35 John 5:26-27 John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.
I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.
God bless,
RLW
Yet, with Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature" (or, creation), doesn't seem to imply that believers are the object; though you (or, your Church) feels it does: "that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)". It's interesting that 'creation' is used here, which doesn't seem to easily bring Christ's Church into its meaning.
That was interesting about the usage of 'arche', that it could be applied to rulers, principalities, etc. I checked your reference Revelation 3:14, and though the application of 'arche' is defined as "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause", your other references ( Colossians 1:16 & Ephesians 3:10) certainly apply to 'principalities/rulers'. And other references are given in support of this: Luke 12:11, Titus 3:1, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:10, & others. So thank you for giving us more to consider in this matter.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
To Page 2.
Part 2,
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
See part 3.
God bless,
RLW
'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.
'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
God the Father granted Christ all authority on heaven and earth which sets forth the ultimate example of how God worked to reward the perfect obedience of Christ. It also goes against Satan's offer to worship him to have such authority. ( Matthew 28:18; Matthew 4:9).
One may question how Christ; who Himself brought all of creation into existence would have such a destiny. ( Colossians 1:16-20). In that situation; one may say that He was the Person to do the work that the Father had planned; and His agent as it were was the Spirit of God (hovering over the waters as it states in Genesis 1:2).
We realize in this that no servant is greater than his master. ( John 15:20). We all are nothing without Him; yet He will likewise exalt the humble with positions to rule and reign with Christ in the Millennium. In some sense we can say that Christ emptied Himself so that He could be our High Priest suffering in all ways but without sin. ( Heb. 4:15). As the second Adam He was able to keep from the temptations of the devil to fall unlike Adam; as well as fulfilling the law perfectly which no man could do. ( 1 Cor. 15:45-47).
It is hard to get our mind around these facts; that He who created all things would start from conception as a helpless babe and end as a sheep to the slaughter ( Isaiah 53:7); the Lamb of God which will forever be ascribed to His Name. Of course all of us who are saved are adopted sons; ( Ephesians 1:5) part of the eternal lineage of the rightous (as contrasted with the earth dwellers in Revelation 11:10).
Christ is returning as conquering king. He alone trods the winepress ( Isaiah 63:3). He alone brings forth the TRUE one world government of peace and rules in righteousness; impartially judging as many verses in Isaiah testify. Some verses can be taken symbolically but to not take Revelation 19 literally or somehow think Christ already returned in some mystical way is heretical thinking (see 2 Tim. 2:18)
1 Timothy 3:16
Colossians 1:14-20
John 14:6
Isaiah 48:12, Revelation 22:13
My interpretation: Jesus is a big deal. Probably bigger than we realize and He loves us and died for each of us that we may choose to follow Him. God bless.
Which means the highest, purest, most perfect, supreme manifestation, example, incarnation, type of the essence of something, the express image.
Jesus is the quintessential expression of God.
Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High."
Colossians 2:9 "For in Him dwelleth ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
John 14:9 "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father,, and how saith though then: Show us the Father?
Jesus is God in the flesh. He is the Son of the Father eternally and one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Godhead is three Persons in one Godhead. Not three gods, but one. Jesus became man to save us and to show us a fleshy person of the Godhead, that is in union with the Godhead as the Word made flesh. Jesus is the perfect manifestation of true God. There is no other who can truly and perfectly represent God to us. Jesus is the only one who came from within the Godhead to earth to live as a man for us. The Holy Spirit is the only Spirit who came from within the Godhead to come to live in us. When Jesus came to earth, the Father and the Spirit were in Him yet still separate Persons from Him. And when the Holy Spirit lives in us, the Father and the Son lives in each of us, yet are still separate Persons. There are not multiple Fathers and Sons and Holy Spirits inhabiting every believer that every has lived. There is only one. God who is everywhere present all the time and specifically present in every believer. This is a mystery, but it is real and true. God has told us so in His Word that is truly true.
In heaven, if Jesus is the only one we see of the Godhead, we will truly be seeing the Godhead.