Discuss Zechariah 12

  • S Spencer - 2 months ago
    Israel

    Romans 11:16-24 shows Israel as distinct from the Church: the "natural branches" are the Jews, and the "wild branches" are the Gentiles.

    The "olive tree" is the collective people of God. The "natural branches" (Jews) are "cut off" the tree for unbelief, and the "wild branches" (believing Gentiles) are grafted in. This has the effect of making the Jews "jealous" and then drawing them to faith in Christ, so they might be grafted in again and receive their promised inheritance.

    The natural branches are still distinct from the "wild branches," so that God's covenant with His people is literally fulfilled.

    Romans 11:26-29, citing Isaiah 59:20-21 Isaiah 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34

    Isaiah 62:11-12 "Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

    And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

    Moses' prediction of Israel's permanent restoration to the land in Deuteronomy 30:1-10.

    Moses said, "THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEARTS!!

    SO HOW WILL "ALL ISRAEL BE SAVED?

    Zechariah 8-14 , which speak of end-times Israel at Christ's return.

    The key verse describing the coming to faith of the future remnant of Israel is Zechariah 12:10.

    This occurs at the end of the tribulation.

    Also; Zechariah 8:7-8.

    Israel will be regathered from the ends of the earth ( Isaiah 11:12.

    Isaiah 62:10.

    Zechariah 13:8-9

    Isaiah 12:1-6 is their song of deliverance.

    God bless.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 8 months ago
    Hi Rjgil4769.

    Genesis 12:2-3 is probably closest and the most popular.

    Some try to associate these two verses with the Church along with all the promises and blessings prophesied to Israel. and all the cursings to the Nation Israel.

    Antisemitism began in the early Church, as soon as Paul brought the Gospel to the Gentiles.

    Some saw the Jews as the Christ killers, even though for this cause he come into the world.

    ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD and God blessed him!

    God blesses the Nation Israel because he is faithful and remembers the Abrahamic covenant that is associated with the Davidic covenant.

    A chosen people and a land here on earth is tied to those promises.

    When we bless Israel we enlists ourselves as one who believes God also.

    God brought Israel alive from a valley of dry bones and yet some say God is done with Israel.

    Here's just a few of many verses similar to the answer of your question.

    Zechariah 2:8-9.

    For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

    For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

    Zechariah 12:1-9.

    Zechariah 14:12.

    Psalms 122:6.

    The Lord also punished Nations that relished when Israel was being punished by God. Obadiah 1:8-14.

    Israel exists today because of promise not faithfulness to God.

    They being brought back to the land because of prophetic promises not obedience.

    2 Samuel 7:23-24.

    God bless.
  • Chris - In Reply - 8 months ago
    Hello Rjgil4769. There are many portions in the Bible, where we find that God promises to protect His people Israel. However, Israel, in their often disobedience & idolatry suffered much under God's Hand & were punished & given into the hands of their enemies. Yet, God's harsh dealings with them were to bring them back to Him, that they would reject all other gods & cleave only to Him. But suffer they did, but how long will it take for Israel to realize that they still spurn God's Love by rejecting Him & His Messiah Who came to redeem them? For this, Israel still suffers & will continue to do so until their eyes are opened & they shall see Him come in the clouds, "they also which pierced Him" ( Revelation 1:7)

    Here are some Scriptures of God's care & promise to Israel: Genesis 12:1-3; Joshua 1:1-6; Psalm 83:1-18 (noting Asaph's appeal to God against those nations confederate against Israel. That all men might know the LORD' Name is Yahweh - not Allah); Psalm 122:6,7; Isaiah 41:8-16; Ezekiel chaps 38 & 39 (still future); Zechariah 2:8,9; Zechariah 12:2-9 (still future).

    And we also see God's protection over Israel even after the birth of the Jewish State in May 1948: soon after this, five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon & Iraq) came against a small Israeli opposition & were resoundly defeated. 1967 (six-day war) where Egypt, Jordan, Syria & Lebanon) attacked Israel to wipe them off the map. They were not only defeated by Israel but Israel captured the Sinai, Golan Heights, Gaza & the West Bank. 1973 (on Yom-Kippur), Egyptian & Syrian forces attacked Israel on this holy day (Day of Atonement). Once again Israel was able to defeat this surprise attack against them with the help of U.S. forces. And 2016, in December, a mysterious storm cloud (of dust and rain) put a barrier between Israel and ISIS. Reports say the storm stopped on the border of Syria and ISIS was 'unable' to enter Israel's Golan Heights area. God has not forgotten Israel.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 8 months ago
    Part 17.

    The Islamic Threat To Israel (Part 4)

    My wife, Ruth, and I together with our four children, ages 8-15, were in Egypt at that time, as eyewitnesses to Arab intentions. On an Egyptian freighter from Alexandria to Beirut, I sat in the lounge with wild-eyed, shouting Arabs around me, watching the Arab arms buildup under Nasser. We saw the complete confidence with which the Arab world, momentarily united behind Nasser in this common goal, prepared to exterminate the Jews. We were heading for Jordan in our VW micro-bus when the Lord graciously redirected us north through Syria. We crossed into Turkey safely just hours before war broke out.

    Israel had no choice but to make a preemptive strike in self-defense. The destruction of the Egyptian and Syrian air forces on the ground and the conquest of the Arab armies in what became known as the "Six-day War" is history, another fulfillment of Zechariah 12:6: "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again."

    Nasser never recovered from the blow to his ego, and died of a heart attack in 1970. He was succeeded by Anwar Sadat. The latter is remembered for making "peace" with Israel, for which he was murdered by the Muslim Brotherhood.

    The real Sadat is revealed in an open letter he wrote to Hitler after the latter's death, expressing the hope that the Fuhrer was still alive, and sympathizing with his just cause against the Jews. Similarly, Egyptian columnist, Ahmad Rajab (Al-Akbar, 4/18/01), wrote: "Thanks to Hitler, blessed memory, who on behalf of the Palestinians, revenged in advance, against the most vile criminals on the face of the earth. But we do have a complaint against him--his revenge was not enough."

    See Part 18.
  • Richard H Priday on Zechariah 12 - 10 months ago
    Zechariah 12:1-4

    1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

    3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

    4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

    Verse 1 demonstrates that the God of all creation has specific plans for Israel. Verses 2-4 show how Armageddon will transpire; when all nations fight Israel and are drawn to Armageddon ( Rev. 16:13-14). Eventually as in other earlier campaigns; God's enemies in some part will start to fight one another; although Christ personally destroys the armies in the valley of Armageddon itself. These verses show what is happening first in Judah (the southern part of Israel) then in Jerusalem itself.

    Verses 5 through 7 discuss the "governors of Judah" which may have been the representatives such as Nehamiah and those commissioned to rule by Persia at that time; but certainly there are end time ramifications here as to what I mentioned above; Judah being saved first.

    Verse 8 then talks about supernatural strength against enemies among the residents of Jerusalem. Verse 9 shows how God Himself will fight against the enemies. The rest of the passage shows how those in Israel finally recognize their Messiah. Everyone mourns by themselves. Apparently it isn't until the brink of the Second Coming until there is national repentence for those still alive realizing finally who Christ really is and finally have remorse.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 11 months ago
    David and Gigi.

    Part 4.

    David

    if God is speaking in parables when he is mentioning Israel and Jerusalem brought back to the land, and it is given to us to know the parables,

    Can you or Gigi explain these three chapters of "parables" Zechariah chapters 12, 13, and 14?

    Here are just a few verses.

    Zechariah 12:2-3. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

    And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

    Zechariah 13:9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    Zechariah 14:2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    Please take the liberty to read all three chapters.

    I find it strange how two people can take entirely different paths or hermeneutic principles and end up at the same place on this topic.

    David, you spiritualize the text as most do to get to a desired destination,

    Gigi, you hitch a ride there, but don't believe in spiritualizing the text, "I've seen some of your debates with Alex and Earl"

    Gigi, Can you explain what route you took to get to your viewpoint? Because if you don't believe in dispensationalism you are going to have to except Alex and Earls way of interpreting scripture to do away with these hundreds of Kingdom verses here on Earth.

    See Part 5.
  • Richard H Priday on Psalms 97:1 - 1 year ago
    Psalm 97

    Verse 1 indicates the "multitude of isles" being glad when the Lord reigns. This term has been said to refer to the Gentile nations or the outermost parts of the world. Ezekiel 39:6 and Isaiah 41:5 seem to refer to these parts of the world during the Tribulation with Isaiah 24:15 giving a prophetic indication that even in the fires God will be glorified.

    Verse 2 on clouds and darkness are similar to Solomon's description of God in 1 Kings 8:12 similar to other passages.

    Verse 3 through 5 show the affects on the earth of His coming. We are reminded of 2 Thessalonians 2:8 as well as the battle of Armageddon.

    Verse 4 reminds us of Matthew 24:27 when the Son of Man comes as to His appearing.

    Verse 5 shows us similar references to Psalm 68:2 among other places.

    Verse 6 shows as things are now; God's presence evident to all as we see indicated in Romans 1 and Psalm 19. Man will see His glory when He comes to rule in the Millennium.

    Verse 7 shows that finally idol worship will end when Christ comes back. People will eventually cast forth their idols of gold and silver during the Tribulation judgments as Isaiah 2:20. Perhaps some of that sadly will occur because Satan himself will demand worship and that will eliminate worship of any false gods but also the true God with the mark of the beast sealing people's fate.

    Verse 8 shows how Judah and the remaining nation of Israel will rejoice; which will happen when He is returning as Zechariah 12:10 indicates. Verse 9 shows the majesty of God unparalleled.

    Verse 10 shows how saints are delivered; either from or through disaster.

    Verse 11 reminds us of His light and no longer a need for the sun and moon from Revelation 21:23 but also found in Isaiah 60:19.

    Finally the last verse talks about rejoicing of the righteous and thanks at remembrance of His holiness. Good sentiment for all times or dispensations and the age to come.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Abrahamic Covenant.

    Part 4.

    The Abrahamic Covenant also included a promise of blessing and redemption ( Genesis 12:3). All the earth would be blessed through Abraham. This promise finds its fulfillment in the New Covenant ( Jeremiah 31:31-34; cf. Luke 22:20), which was ratified by Jesus Christ, the son of Abraham and Redeemer who will one day "restore everything" ( Acts 3:21).

    Five times in Genesis 12, as God is giving the Abrahamic Covenant, He says, "I will." Clearly, God takes the onus of keeping the covenant upon Himself. The covenant is unconditional. One day, Israel will repent, be forgiven, and be restored to God's favor ( Zechariah 12:10-14; Romans 11:25-27). One day, the nation of Israel will possess the entire territory promised to them. One day, the Messiah will return to set up His throne, and through His righteous rule the whole world will be blessed with an abundance of peace, pleasure, and prosperity.

    There will have an article highlighting the Abrahamic Covenant.

    THAT BRINGS US TO THE DAVIDIC COVENANT.

    The Davidic Covenant refers to God's promises to David through Nathan the prophet and is found in 2 Samuel 7 and later summarized in 1 Chronicles 17:11-14 and 2 Chronicles 6:16. This is an unconditional covenant made between God and David through which God promises David and Israel that the Messiah (Jesus Christ) would come from the lineage of David and the tribe of Judah and would establish a kingdom that would endure forever. The Davidic Covenant is unconditional because God does not place any conditions of obedience upon its fulfillment. The surety of the promises made rests solely on God's faithfulness and does not depend at all on David or Israel's obedience.

    NEXT.

    See the Davidic Covenant.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Well stated Brother Chris.

    Zechariah 12:9,10 definitely wasn't fulfilled ar the cross,

    In 1 Corinthians 15:8 Paul says he was born out of due time and when he wrote to the Romans he stated they were still blinded.

    2 Corinthians 3:13-16 he mentions this and the veil upon their heart.

    When their heart shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

    The veil is still on their heart today "Until" the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    God bless.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Page 2.

    But all that is OT prophecy. Has Israel been blotted out because of their stubbornness, & only the Church is what is on God's Mind as His new Israel? I believe that God cherishes His Church (those of Israel & the Gentiles purchased with His Son's Blood), yet yearns for His chosen ones to whom His covenants were given.

    The Apostle Paul shares much on this: we read of his yearning for his people & the promise that they will come to the Lord, when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come inAnd so all Israel shall be saved" ( Romans 11:25-27). He isn't referring here to a reconstructed/renamed Israel comprising believing Jews & Gentiles; Paul sees not only the Church (saved Jew & Gentile) in his many writings but also that Israel as a nation/people will continue to exist & play a major part in the end-times. To remove Israel completely out of the end-time picture, would also remove much from the Word that speaks of them as a nation (see also Hebrews 8:8-12 & Jeremiah 31:31-34 for the New Covenant which applies to all now, & will still find it's complete fulfilment in Israel's restoration in the end times). Even Jesus proclaimed that, "Ye (Israel) shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" ( Matthew 23:39) - I wonder when that time will be? ( Zechariah 12:9,10).
  • Richard H Priday - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Dividing the Word: Eschatology in regard to the Rapture of the Church; other resurrections and the Second Coming of Christ

    1 Corinthians 15:23 explains about Christ; the firstfruits and those that are there at His coming (loosely translated). The Day of the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:10) also has a time factor; I would argue that it encompasses the entire period from the Second Coming of Christ to the final consummation at the end of the Millennium; in other words the concept of the last day of rest being that time frame ( 2 Peter 3:8 just two verses previous). When we look at verses right before Armageddon ( Rev. 16:15) we see a reference to the thief in the night also. This complicates things further if we analyze the parable of the two virgins as it seems on the surface to indicate those not ready at the Rapture but it could also refer to those all the way up to the Second Coming (such as Jews in Israel who apparently don't realize who their true Messiah is until He returns or immediately before-see in Zechariah 12:12.

    I am attempting to get some clarity on the subject of the Rapture (or harpazo the word used in the original language). There seems to be question on it even being an actual event (although that is in the minority). I anticipate a number of posts; ultimately I want to present as much scripture as possible so that we can all be Bereans. I will be the first to admit that some things are difficult to understand. Also; I wish to differentiate between what may more than one valid opinion as there are multiple events the occur. There are also certain distinct events that occur during the Tribulation; but with the brevity of the time frame there is certainly much overlap between the church age; and the coming Millenial period with distinctions between those living in heaven; those who survive the judgments to repopulate the earth and those martyred during the Tribulation who rise again.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 year ago
    True, Ruby: "Prophecy can be inside actual historical events", & this is what this prophecy in Ezekiel was given to do. But how do we understand this chapter 5 prophecy?

    The prophet was required to graphically demonstrate what would happen to Judah at the end stages of the Babylonian siege on Jerusalem. This was a prophecy to Judah to tell them what would come upon them & to provoke them to repentance. This demonstration by Ezekiel by cutting his hair in three parts plus one, showed them that a third would die in the city, a third probably in battle, & a third dragged into exile. So, these first five verses in Ezekiel chapter 5, are about the coming destruction & captivity, & only a few (vv 3,4) considered faithful, but still subject to suffering.

    None of these "were chosen to have the Spirit to cause them to come to the truth" & none ever received Him since that time until Jesus opened the Door for Judah (& Israel), & gave them His Spirit when they turned to Him in faith, that their eyes might be opened.

    Yet, Zechariah 12:10 will be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Jesus, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn" ( Revelation 1:7). Is then Ezekiel chapter 5 about a "fire coming forth INTO all the house of Israel"? I don't believe so. Rather, it's a fire going THROUGH the house of Judah (& Israel) as judgement for their many sins against the Holy One.
  • Ruby Lea Read - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Brother Chris:

    Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shall burn with fire a THIRD PART (the called out) in the misdst of THE CITY, when the days of the SIEGE are FULFILLED

    Chris you have to go back to Ezekiel chapter 4 to understand the SIEGE of Jerusalem, it's what made all the houses desolate, there was no activity of the Holy Spirit for 430 years.

    Then Jesus came to Jerusalem, but they didn't understand, there houses (we are the house of Christ) were left unto them desolate, void of any understanding of the scriptures, because there was no spirit to interpret the scriptures for them, NO ONE UNDERSTOOD until PENECOSTE and the Spirit was poured out, now Jerusalem can understand, but it is not the OLD, it's the NEW JERUSALEM, the mother of us all.

    Ezekiel 5:1-5 is talking about those that were chosen to have the Spirit CAUSE THEM ( Ezekiel 36:27) to come to the truth: Christ is calling out a priesthood of the house of JUDAH ( Zechariah 12:7) to JUDGE all those that will be RAISED at the second resurrection.

    Ezekiel 5: ....thereof shall a fire COME FORTH into all the house of Israel ....

    Prophecy can be inside actual historical events.

    God Bless YOU!
  • Jesse - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Jimbob,

    I have a question for you if you don't mind?

    If what you are saying is true, that "Jesus comes in the clouds to gather together His elect, the church after the tribulation," and you say the elect is the church, and if I remember correctly, you don't believe the word "tribes" is a Jewish term that refers to Jews, and I am assuming you are referring to Matthew 24:30 by this?

    But my question is: why would the Church mourn? Wouldn't it make more sense that this is referring to the Jews, not the church?

    That would make more sense to me. I can see why they (the Jews) would mourn. When they see Jesus coming in the clouds, it is then that they are going to realize who Jesus is. When they see Him coming in the clouds with the marks of His crucifixion, they are going to realize that they crucified their Messiah. That's why they will mourn.

    Zechariah 12:20 says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced. So at this time when Christ comes (at His second coming), the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look at Jesus coming in the clouds, and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!"

    If you are not referring to Matthew 24:30, then please accept my apology.
  • Jesse - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hello again, Jimbob,

    As you asked, here is what I can share on Matthew 24:29-31. I will need more than one post to give you, my understanding.

    (Part 1)

    These verses speak of the promise of Jesus' second coming. Understanding the 7-steps of a Jewish wedding helps give a better understanding of Christ's second coming, and also some of the Jewish views about when Christ is coming back. If you would like for me to send you what the 7-steps are, I will do so. It is very interesting, I promise! They are literal steps of a Jewish wedding, and they parallel the things spoken of in Matthew's gospel.

    So, reading through Matthew 24:29-30, it says that immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give any light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn.

    Now the word "tribes" is very important. That tells us that we are talking about Jewish people. It is a Jewish term. All the tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. All the tribes! Again, that would be Jews.

    In Revelation 1:7, it tells us that every eye will see Him, even those who have pierced Him. Zechariah 12:10 is a prophecy that the Jews hold to, only they don't understand its application. It says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced.

    So, at this time when Christ comes (at His second coming), the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!" They are going to recognize Him. And we see in Verse 31 that the Lord's going to round them all up. It says in this verse that He's going to come upon the clouds of heaven. That's given to us in Daniel 7:13.

    To be continued...
  • Ruby Lea Read - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Amen Brother Alex:

    Everyone gets the same wage: immortality; Christ ONLY hath immortality ( 1 Timothy 6:16), the firstfruits in this age, all others in the next age, the feast of the ingathering, feast of the TENTS or tabernacles.

    Zechariah 12:7 And I will save the TENTS of Judah FIRST ---- firstfruits -----there are TWO harvest, firstfruits then the ingathering.

    Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be, and that which is done shall be done, there is no new thing under the sun.

    God Bless YOU!
  • Richard H Priday on Psalms 14 - 1 year ago
    This Psalm is focusing on those who would be what we call today "atheists." They are said here to do terrible things; as well as go after God's people. Verses 1 and 3 remind us that there is no one who does good. We see this sort of behavior in the end of dispensations of time when "judgment comes to the full" starting in Genesis 15:16; and it continues to the transgressions of Babylon at the end of the 70 years of captivity as well as the time in Revelation in the example of a few instances.

    Lest we entertain the tought that this state is only for those who deny that God exists; we surely have to realize the admonitions in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 about those who did not receive the LOVE of the truth. Ultimately; as Romans 1 and Psalm 19 indicate there is enough evidence in Creation that men are without excuse; also including evidence of the godhead ( Romans 1:20). We are reminded that because God does not execute judgment right away men get complacent in Ecclesiastes 8:11.

    We are reminded here in verse 6 of the treatment of the poor of Proverbs 21:20 where "a fool and his money are soon parted." Some; thankfully will repent when humbled enough; sadly others not as Revelation makes all too clear. The last verse once again looks forward to the salvation of the nation of Israel; related to the last days return of His people. Israel for now is far nationally from repentance; and it won't fully repent and come to the true Messiah until the Lord is returning ( Zechariah 12:12 and surrounding verses). Let us all test our hearts to make sure that we are worthy to escape all the things that are to come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man ( Luke 21:36 see also Rev. 3:10).
  • Richard H Priday on Revelation 20 - 1 year ago
    Concluding thoughts Revelation 20

    There are those in the Post Mil camp who insist the events of the end of this chapter are the same as that of Armageddon; or the Second Coming of Christ (i.e. there is no literal millennium period). This is excused by explaining that the church has been in the "Millennium" since the church age began at the Resurrection; and somehow it has extended almost 2000 years. The fact that the Beast and False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire first and Satan is cast where they ARE at the end of the period should be clear enough. We also could look at the rule of Christ as the "day of rest" which would be the last thousand of a seven thousand year time frame allotted for man much like the pattern of 7 days of creation with the last day of rest. We see differences too in the type of invasion at the end of the Millennium (no weapons are mentioned and instead of being centered in a small valley it is a widespread mass from the whole earth.) There is some argument about the Gog and Magog war being in both time frames (Trib and at the end of the 1000 years) or one or another. That can be covered elsewhere. With Christ reigning He won't allow the years of famine; war and pestilence once again to occur (remember He said it would be a worse time than ever before OR again). The next chapter shows a new heavens and new earth where heavenly Jerusalem comes DOWN to earth.

    We have the literal fulfillment of prophecies about Israel as to it's territory; and national repentance such as Zechariah 12:12 which simply hasn't happened yet. There are covenantal promises; which as far as I can tell don't have to be a mutually exclusive thing from dispensational time periods. The church is a new covenant which Christ fulfilled the law and made the perfect sacrifice once and for all. Or; more simply put with Christ ruling the THEOCRACY of Israel will return; and it will finally achieve the glory destined for it.
  • Richard H Priday on Revelation 20 - 1 year ago
    Revelation chapter 20.

    This chapter; like all scriptures should be taken as a literal prophetic event unless certain things are clearly symbolic. In this case everything is given a literal time frame and sequence; with supporting details not only in this chapter and the rest of Revelation; but other books including the Old Testament in scripture.

    We can argue what we may about a Post Millennium mindset and agree to disagree if we have a basic belief in Christ's PHYSICAL return to earth in the future (something which FULL preterists seem to think has already occurred but in some mystical fashion). That would be the only case where we should disfellowship; and I and another brother in the Lord were forced to do that a few years ago. Something else which I consider very dangerous is the mindset that Satan is already bound in the bottomless pit. This is notwithstanding all the promises of the church that the powers of darkness will have no affect on us. There is certainly no limitation on killing the saints of God which Satan will do and continue to do until his punishment is enacted (at the end of the Tribulation and the end of the battle after he is released after the 1000 years). The general statement that a time worse than any that has ever happened or will ever exist again ( Matt. 24:21) with all the percentages of deaths listed in Revelation certainly has not occurred yet. We need to examine other scriptures such as Isaiah 14:17; Isaiah 41:5-13 on the coastlands burning; Isaiah 13:12 on man being rarer than the "gold of Ophir"; Isaiah 30:28 about the nations being put into the seive of destruction; Zechariah 12:9 on all nations gathered and half of Jerusalem taken and numerous other prophetic passages to see that indeed Armageddon must occur. Other verses talk of clear descriptions of mortal man still capable of sinning on the earth in the Millennium such as Zechariah 14:17-18; and Isaiah 65:20-25 being two of the clearest examples.
  • Richard H Priday on Revelation 10:11 - 1 year ago
    Revelation 10: Concluding thoughts

    Therefore; there is no more holding back judgment (See Jeremiah 15:1 for example). The "plumbline" is drawn ( Amos 7:7-9).

    There is a distinct time frame where God says "enough" and Christ is set free with the righteous angels to procure judgment.

    We see in the following chapters that in fact He uses Satan by giving him what he always wanted; control over the entire world.

    Geographically; he doesn't gain all the territory; but surely with technology and his minions can enforce his mark worldwide through the 10 nations or regional confederacy that rule with him for "one hour". ( Rev. 17:12). It is an interesting sidenote; which I pointed out before about some who fight in the Ezekiel 38 war AGAINST Antichrist. Since one sixth survive it is possible that they did NOT recieve the mark of the Beast and have a chance at surviving into othe Millenium. In Isaiah 49:23 we see kings and queens being "nursing fathers" and mothers as it were (part of that obviously symbolic). In Jeremiah 31:16-17 we see further confirmation of this. This isn't the main point of the passage; but it shows how God may use captivity and even kidnapping to ultimately preserve the lives of children into the Millennium; the alternative being killed in Israel by Antichrist.

    We need to see several larger themes here. God is using all this so that FINALLY as Christ is returning the nation will repent; and that in weeping. (see Zechariah 12:12). It seems hard to believe that the nations get it in regard to Christ and God in the sixth seal; and Israel remains blind that long. Romans 11:25 sheds some light on this; in regard to the "fullness of the Gentiles" which could be indicative of the Church Age ending; complete with the Rapture/Resurrections discussed previously.

    Altogether; He uses Satan's own planning to draw men to the snare and trap of Armageddon where things come to a swift conclusion. No more delay can occur or no flesh would live ( Matt. 24:22
  • Richard H Priday on Revelation 1 - 1 year ago
    Revelation 1: Commentary

    Revelation begins much in the characteristic emphasis that John placed in the Gospels with the Godhead and its roles in rulership. The message was from Jesus Christ that God gave to him (apparently John) through an angel (unnamed). He who bore record (verse 2) shows John mentioning himself in the 3rd person; as to the written testimony of what he had seen and heard. Verse 3 shows a blessing for anyone who hears and KEEPS the things written in it; which shows that admonitions to persevere patiently and keeps themselves from aligning or falling into error which often comes into the church will be needed for this benefit.

    Verse 4 and 5 show the seven churches in Asia and how they typify the sevenfold Spirit of God at the throne. This could be a template of the churches throughout the Church Age; or as some say chronologically roughly describing the state of the church; i.e. the Philadelphia church being the one that brought revival in the 1700s and through the early 1900's and the Laodicean one being the last days one of today which certainly seems to be the state the church is in today in general.

    Verse 5 shows Christ's being the first begotten (or firstfruits) of the Resurrected dead; as well as the faithful witness Himself; and His position as the prince of the kings of the earth. Verse 6 clues us in about later passages in Revelation stating that we are made "kings and priests"

    (that is those faithful believers today).

    Verse 7 also alludes to later verses of the Second coming; as well as a preview of the sixth seal judgment. It also shows a foreshadow of Zechariah 12:12-14 when Israel as a whole finally realizes at the last moment before Christ returns that He is the true Messiah. Finally; the general observation of all those who will bow the knee ( Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10-11)

    is previewed. Verse 8 about the Alpha and Omega shows the boundaries of time for all things from a Godhead ruling outside time itself.
  • PROPHECY - In Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4 - 1 year ago
    Sister Theresa:

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto man once to DIE; but after this the judgement.

    This death happens by THE COMING OF THE LORD, HIM in YOU, his body.

    This SECOND COMING cannot be seen: it comes like a thief in the night.

    Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was ONCE OFFERED (first coming of Christ) to bear the sins of many; and to them who LOOK for him shall he appear a SECOND TIME (second coming CHRIST as the HOLY GHOST) without sin, UNTO SALVATION.

    Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming FIRE.

    Revelation 9:18 By these was the THIRD PART of man KILLED (first death, not literal), by the FIRE, and the SMOKE, and the BRIMSTONE, which ISSUED OUT OF THEIR MOUTH.

    All of us, THE DECEIVED, are KILLED, destroyed, by GOD'S WORD.

    All that is LEFT is TRUTH and LIFE.

    John 14:6 ....I AM TRUTH .....I AM LIFE ....

    Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shall BURN WITH FIRE a THIRD PART .....

    Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the THIRD PART through the FIRE ...

    Zechariah 13:8 And it SHALL COME TO PASS, that in all the land, TWO PARTS shall be cut off and DIE (literal, go to the grave); but the THIRD PART shall BE LEFT (never see death) therein.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we (that died the first death, that came to the truth of Christ's resurrection) SHALL REMAIN (having become ONE WITH TRUTH: CHRIST) and be CAUGHT UP together with THEM (the Old Testament Saints, resurrected with Christ) in the clouds (symbolic of God's Temple, the cloud was always over the tabernacle of the Old Covenant), to meet the Lord on the air, so shall we ever be (in the presence) with the Lord (the IMAGE OF CHRIST).

    Zechariah 12:7 And the Lord shall save the tents of Judah FIRST (the Old Testament Saints; resurrected with Christ), that the GLORY of the HOUSE OF DAVID (those born again of TRUTH) and the glory of the house of Jerusalem (same people) do not magnify themselves against the house of Judah.

    Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will DO NOTHING, but he revealeth his SECRET to his servants the Prophets.
  • PROPHECY - In Reply on James 1 - 1 year ago
    Giannis:

    It takes all the books of the PROPHETS to understand the PARABLE ( Matthew 13:34) of the rich man and Lazarus.

    Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will DO NOTHING, but he REVEALETH his secret unto his servants the PROPHETS.

    Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, if they HEAR NOT Mosses and the PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    No where in Moses and the prophets does it prophesy that anyone goes to heaven or hell. It prophesies that there will be a Kingdom of God.

    The books of the prophets, prophesies, that the elect will BE BROUGHT through the fire; not avoid it.

    It prophesies that only a third will be brought through the fire in this age; the others will go to the grave and wait for the resurrection to the next age.

    Revelation is a second witness to the prophecies.

    Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two thirds shall be cut off and die, and a THIRD shall be left therein ( Luke 17:34-35).

    Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the THIRD PART through the FIRE ..

    Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shall burn with fire a THIRD part ..

    Ezekiel 5:3 ..take THEREOF a few in number ..

    Ezekiel 5:4 ...take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire, for THEREOF shall a fire COME FORTH into all the house of Israel.

    Obadiah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a FLAME ....

    Luke 16:24 ....for I am tormented in this FLAME.

    Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this HONOUR hath all his Saints.

    Obadiah 1:21 And Saviours (those that have obtained the next age, the IMAGE OF CHRIST) shall come on mount Zion to JUDGE the mount of Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

    Zechariah 12:8 And in that day ( Revelation 20:9) shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David, and the house of David shall be as (the image of) GOD, and the angel of the LORD before them.
  • Jesse - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Julie,

    John 19:34 is what you might be looking for. This was not during the resurrection but while He was still on the cross. There is no place in scripture that says they got blood from Jesus during His resurrection.

    John 19:31-37 is the prophecy concerning His (Jesus') bones. John 19:36 is the fulfillment of Psalm 34:20 and Exodus 12:4. And then John 19:37 is the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Thank you David. You wrote: "how are we born dead in trespasses and sins before being born again of holy spirit." I tried finding this reference in the Bible & the best I could do, was in Ephesians 2:1, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins." Maybe you have another verse that you're thinking of, so I'd be interested to look at that.

    So, using my Ephesians 2:1 verse, I understand that Paul is saying that after sin was imputed to us (through committing the first act), then we died spiritually. Physically alive, but spiritually dead - but God, through His Son, has quickened (enlivened) us, that our spirits might become alive God-wards & not dead, once upon a time having our spirits inclined only towards evil. So, I can't see where we are "BORN dead in trespasses & sins" - I believe that we can only die spiritually after we sin & its imputation to us & not at birth.

    Re: "body, soul, & spirit". As I shared in another thread, this triunity of man is given us in the womb - though obviously undeveloped & without expression. I don't understand if you're stating that before our spiritual re-birth, we had only a body & 'breath life soul', without a spirit? Maybe, you're equating the arrival of our spirit only upon the onset of our spiritual rebirth. I could in a small way understand what you're saying (if that's what you're inferring), except for the volume of Scriptures indicating that a human (whatever his spiritual state) must have a human spirit to be alive.

    I think these Scriptures reveal what I believe: Haggai 1:14; Job 32:8; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Proverbs 20:27; Zechariah 12:1; 1 Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26. I've picked a few verses specifically showing the evidence of a human spirit well before ever being touched by God's Spirit. If our spirits are untouched by God's Spirit (i.e. without rebirth), we remain spiritually dead towards God, but humanly alive & our spirits accountable to Him in that coming day.
  • T. Levis - In Reply on 1 Kings 6 - 2 years ago
    These scriptures really apply to "Believers in Christ Jesus" & all that will believe : He was bruised for our transgressions, Isaiah 53, Psalms 22:16, Zechariah 12:10, John 19, read through the chapter to see Jesus' piercings, for us. John 3:15-21,

    When we believe in Him, we become a new creation, 2Corinthians 5:17-19, therefore we try to: Ephesians 4:24, in that we offer ourselves as a living sacrifice to GOD : Romans 12:1,

    Revelation 1:7, I believe the weeping & wailing will be because the amazing person Jesus is & the humble man, with His scars who did it, just for us to be with Him, in His Kingdom : Luke 23:32-48, Matthew 26:28,

    Jesus sat with sinners: Matthew 9:10-13, Jesus healed, delivered, feed & accepted the people including harlots, sinners, etc. Just read the Bible & see.

    Hopefully these are helpful
  • Alex N on Zechariah 12 - 2 years ago
    I love to think about this Jesse David and Solomon Kingdom....I see these 3 men as being symbolic of the heavenly Kingdom/ Trinity...In Isaiah 11 :1 Isaiah uses these 3 men which were Father Son and Granson as being symbolic of a kingdom coming in the last days...When God was gonna visit his ppl the 2 nd time ...There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse...Which was David a type of Christ that came outa of the stem of God Almighty..And a branch shall come out of Davids loins which was Solomon the Granson ... Isaiah 11 :11 .... Isaiah cd not use these 3 men as symbolic of a kingdom coming in the last day simply b/c they had all been dead for approx. 300 yrs ...All this was just prophetic that a Heavenly Kingdom that wd come the last days when God wd visit his ppl the 2 nd time...This 2 nd coming and this last day Kingdom wd be a Trinity kingdom of FATHER SON AND GRANSON That wd be multiplied as the Stars of heaven...The H.G. is the 3 rd person The Child that comes out of Christ loins...Thats y Isaiah referes to Jesus as everlasting Father simply b/c he propagates very God with his words his breath which is his seed.

    ...Also this Abrahamic Trinity was Father Son and Granson...That God Promised to multiply as the sands of seas in multitudes.

    ....When God told Moses that his NAME was Abraham Issac and Jacob that is just prophetic that his Kingdom wd be a father Son and Granson Kingdom without this Granson Jacob and the 12 tribes this Abrahamic Trinity cd not be multiplied as the Sands of the Seas....And thats the way the Heavenly Kingdom the H.G. An Israel of God will be multiplied as the stars of heaven by the Regeneration of the H.G...When the sower will go forth to sow his precious seed in humanity...Resulting in a birth of Christ in everybody....Thats the New Covenant an intimacy with Humanity...I will know them all from the least to the greatest Thus there will be an Israel of God as the Stars of Heaven in multitude .GB
  • Richard H Priday - In Reply - 2 years ago
    The earlier comment would be true in regard of course to the two witnesses who the whole world sees dying and being resurrected. It is fairly clear that even in hades in the past communication existed between individuals (Lazarus and the rich man); and such events are also seen in the Transfiguration and indeed throughout Revelation where the saints of God are asking "how long" when still in a spirit form under the altar. There is also some time element here; eventually even those in hell will all come out of their graves for the "Great White Throne Judgment" and the saints of God of course are Raptured/Resurrected before that. (although some eschatologies think it happens all at once at that time).

    We could; of course look to many "near death" and death documentaries. We can't validate the theological aspects of all types of experiences as true but there is a rather uniform description of having vision of all things around them (360 degree aspect) in many accounts. Physically; of course those who are still physically alive at His return will see Him come (as lightning goes from the east to the west). ( Matthew 24:27). We also have Hebrews 9:27; as well as other verses showing that we all stand before God immediately after death ( 2 Cor. 5:6 also). We have all tribes mourning when He comes back to earth ( Zechariah 12:12).

    There seem to be some verses saying that places that have neither heard of his fame or seen His glory ( Isaiah 66:20) will do so and that implies during the Millennial reign (according to my eschatological view). So there may be a process until all see Him at least those still alive physically when He comes. Nonetheless; God is beyond time and sees all things in that perspective.

    (Also God created all the physical aspects of creation so certainly rules over it and can supercede things as all the miracles TRULY of God attest).

    Hope this helps. Agape. Rich P.
  • ELB - 2 years ago
    Amen Brother Alex;

    This is for the ones reading our comments.

    Zechariah 12:6 And in that day .....

    The DAY of the LORD, when it became possible TO BE GIVEN eternal life, THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

    John 11:25 .....I am the resurrection, and the LIFE ....

    This DAY has been going on for 2000 years.

    Zechariah 12:6 And in (the first hour of) that day will I make the governors of Judah (OLD SAINTS) like a hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in (NEW) Jerusalem.

    Zechariah 12:7 The LORD also shall save (resurrection to LIFE) the tents of Judah (Old Saints) FIRST, that the glory of the house of David (NEW SAINTS) and the glory of the inhabitants of (NEW)Jerusalem do not magnify themselves (the NEW SAINTS) against Judah (the OLD SAINTS).

    Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of (NEW) Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David as God, as (the likeness) of the angel of the Lord before them (OLD and NEW SAINTS).

    God Bless YOU!
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Page 3.

    If the Spirit speaks to one to keep Sabbath as a rest day, then to that person they should abide - but to another, the Sabbath was not given to Gentiles & any day can be for rest & also for worship ( Romans 14:5,6 & the whole chapter).

    Gentile? If you have no Jewish heritage, then you fall under the Gentile category. If the Gentile has not received the Law, he is a law unto himself ( Romans 2:14,15). Of course, all peoples are under governmental law, unless they're hidden away from society. But for both the Jewish Christian & Gentile Christian, the old Law has no more application or binding, for we are now subject to the Law of the Spirit. I don't believe that anyone with the Holy Spirit within them would ever be led to murder, commit fornication, & other sins. If a believer does sin, then he's going against the Spirit's ministry & appealing to his flesh (& this is why Paul spoke of crucifying the flesh ( Galatians 5:24,25)).

    Jew? When I wrote, 'Jewish convert', I meant that such a person still retains his Jewish heritage/bloodline, but has relinquished all that kept him bound to his faith (Judaism), finding forgiveness of sins, new life & liberty through the promised Messiah, Jesus Christ. The Jews today still await the Messiah, but Jesus came, but they refused Him & crucified Him ( John 1:10-14). But the day will come when they will acknowledge Jesus ( Zechariah 12:10,11; Revelation 1:7,8). People have in the past become Jewish proselytes, embracing Judaism, its Laws & Practises ( Exodus 12:48,49; Acts 2:10; Acts 6:5; Acts 13:43). I hope that I've covered all your questions; if you have other questions feel free to start a new thread. Blessings.


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