4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened"....."If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance".
Don't these people realize that they spit in the face of Jesus and threw away their salvation???? There's no 2nd chance for them. Many false preachers/deceivers are in the world, teaching non-Biblical nonsense. I see billions of people sliding down a greased pole to hell.
I cringe whenever I hear of "Christians" who ditched Jesus in favor of Islam, or any other "religion".
Matthew 17:5
"While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which (God) said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."
Christians get a bad rap. They are commissioned to spread the Word that only Jesus can save humans from their sins. Christians try to warn others that if they don't repent of their sins and seek Jesus, they will go to hell.
As a Christian (but not a very good one) I'm so sick of the wicked and their in-your-face debauchery. Christians are accused of being controlling, hypocritical and hateful. It's so disheartening and exhausting to try to talk to these people. Should I grieve for anyone who knowingly rejects Jesus and dies in their sins??? I'm sure God and Jesus are broken hearted. Somewhere people got the idea that Hell will be one big party. NOT!
Dgjot It would seem to me that your post is proof that once saved always saved is only a theory. Many will (fall away) in the Lastdays ( 2 Thess. 2:3) The word (falling) is defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] divorce, (writing of divorcement).
This would have to be True Believers falling away for it to say ["apostasy"] divorce, and (writing of divorcement).
Hebrews 6:4 is NOT suggesting that someone whom God has "saved" can lose their salvation. That conclusion is a perfect example that demonstrates how important it is that in arriving at any conclusion, we MUST compare spiritual things with spiritual. And we MUST NOT isolate any verse or passage from the rest of the Bible.
When we look at everything in the Bible that speaks about the Nature of Salvation, God teaches that salvation is 100% the work of God Himself.
All of mankind because of Adam's sin is DEAD in sin and CANNOT and WILL NOT turn to God. We are by nature in rebellion against God, both in body and soul. Every time we commit sin we are breaking the Law of God for which the penalty is eternal death. And we come under the Wrath of God. But that is not the end of the story.
God in His incomprehensible MERCY has chosen a remnant, the Elect, from before the foundation of the world to save. This required that God in the person of the LORD Jesus Christ to take upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that His Elect would ever commit and bear the penalty for their sin, the wrath of God, eternal death, and then be raised again to eternal life. All of this was actually done before God ever created the world.
When God "saves" one of His Elect, He performs a very real miracle of giving them a brand new resurrected soul which can never die and which can never sin and God will complete their salvation by giving them their resurrected spiritual body at the Last Day.
God's elective program is God's business. But one whom God has "saved" will not fall away and continue in unbelief. We CANNOT lose our salvation.
No matter how sinful or rebellious we have been or are now, it is still the day of salvation and we may cry out to God in the very real hope that God might save us. Read Jonah 3. Read Ezekiel 36.
I believe that Hebrews 6 is not talking about individuals. It is talking about the churches of our day that have become apostate. 1 Pet 4:17
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ezekiel 36:24-29
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Jude 1:24, 25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
The true gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does 100% of the work in saving us and our works cannot and do not contribute to our salvation in any way whatsoever.
If we have become saved it is because God has chosen us, paid for our sins, drawn us, and saved us. And He will therefore KEEP us.
If we are following a gospel where we can lose our salvation, we are not following the gospel of the Bible.
Thank you for the reply, but you didn't explain that verse. Here's a few more if you would like to try to explain them.
(1) ( Deut. 9:13-14) v14 The LORD says "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they".
(2) ( Rev. 3:3-5) v5 "and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life".
(3) ( Heb. 3:6) "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, ((if)) we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end".
(4) ( James. 2:14-18) v14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? v15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food. v16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? v17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. v18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(5) ( 2 Pet. 2:20-22) v20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. v21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. v22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb. The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(6) ( 2 Thess. 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a ((falling away)) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect.
There are many passages in the Bible that implore us to " Examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith". And "to make are calling and election sure". And if we are one of God's elect, we will ultimately do just that by crying to God for mercy that he might save us. This includes those that may have come under the hearing of the gospel, and may have given some outward evidence of salvation, but had never become saved.
If we have a gospel where we can take some action to lose our salvation, then we have a gospel of works. And that gospel will never save us. And it is not the gospel of the Bible. Read carefully the passages that I quoted. And there are many others.
Here's some scripture- this is what really matters:
Rev 14:11-12 - this draws a distinction between people burning in hell and people of God (Christians) who "keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" Those who are inbetween or lukewarm are rejected and won't be saved: Rev 3:16.
Why would the verse say "remain faithful to Jesus" if they are already "saved" people of God? That is conditional. If people chose to not be faithful to Jesus overall they probably aren't people of God.
Rev 13:8 everyone on earth will worship the beast and will burn in hell for eternity according to Rev 14:11.
Rev 2:23. Jesus will repay each according to your deeds.
Rev 2:25. Hold on to the teachings you have until Jesus comes.
Rev 2:5 talks about falling away from the faith- they need to repent.
Rev 1:8 Jesus is the Lord God.
Jude 1:20 Building yourself up in faith. Suggests that building up and keeping the faith takes effort and practice like a muscle.
The scripture is clear what it means. It is the truth. What some people are saying is not the truth and not based on scripture. Beware of that.
Hi Adam, good to hear from you I was wondering how you are doing since you haven't posted for a while.
Thanks for these verses about enduring in faith until the end. From these we can know that there is an enemy who wishes to undo us in regards to our faith in our Lord. But we have the Holy Spirit in us to strengthen us in faith and empower us to endure. Thank God for this!
But these exhortations tell us that we should not be lax in our walk with God nor take everything lightly when it comes to our relationship with Him. We should be on guard against the schemes of the enemy, the draw of worldliness, and the deceitfulness o our own hearts due to the sinful nature that must be crucified daily.
The Bible speaks of believers falling away from Christ. We should be diligent for ourselves and watchful of other brethren to help them when they are wavering in faith. The gospel is always in season to hear for ourselves and for those we know who are in doubt concerning their salvation and on the verge of turning away from Christ
Amen. Thanks for your kind words, GiGi. I still check what's being discussed periodically but have just been busy and haven't posted as much lately. There is a season for everything. I hope you are doing well and in good health.
I have heard that argument many times where someone says anyone who turns from Christianity was suddenly "never a Christian in the first place" but the problem with that argument is it goes against what the Bible says and observable reality. So, a Christian pastor who served for 40 years and falls out of the faith suddenly "never was a Christian" even though he was for 40 years? Is it a miracle that works retroactively that one day a Christian was not a Christian in the past? Then if the fallen away Christian comes back to follow Christ again does it then erase the 40 years of "never was a Christian" where he now was a Christian again? These rules seem make believe and not reality.
My next question then is so if you believe there are many Christians who are serving in the most prominent positions (such as pastors and worship leaders) whom you claim could have never been Christians, that means you think many potential Christians today are not Christians. So, how do you know who is a Christian then? Are you a Christian? What criteria makes someone a Christian or not?
If someone says a sinners prayer after a message and responds and chooses to follow Jesus is that person not a Christian? If he is, then how would he be a Christian, but a Christian pastor who in the future may stumble currently isn't?
As some shared above for every verse that says "I will never blot you out" of the book of life, etc, there's at least double warning about staying on course and to not fall away. So, judging my sheer quantity of scripture, it heavily sides with that, yes, people can fall away. Most of Paul's letters were to churches (Christians) warning them.
Now I must ask WHEN exactly do you believe you are "saved" from hell? Before or after the day of judgment?
I have often heard from those who hold to a "once saved always saved" doctrinal position that those who fall away were never saved to begin with.
I wonder if they have ever told someone who falls away that they were never saved before falling away even though the person has called on the name of the Lord for salvation and professed faith in Jesus for salvation.
Such an approach towards people who fall away reflects doubt in Gid and His promises to save those who put their faith in Him and in His Son, Jesus. How can one be sure that they are saved if they may fall into a backslidden condition at any time and then be told that they were never saved to begin with? This is a very cruel way to address those believers who turn from Jesus. We do know if God will turn them back to Him at some time in the future.
We should encourage every believer to trust what God has promised in Scripture about believing on Jesus for salvation. We should never cast doubt on the veracity of what the Scriptures tell us on how we are saved-by faith in Jesus. Those we know who have turned away from the faith given to them by the Holy Spirit need to be encouraged to repent and return to Jesus, not tell them that their conversion was never real or valid.
Thank you for giving a balanced accounting of what the Scriptures actually say concerning salvation, assurance of salvation, and the possibility of true believers falling away from faith. The Scriptures do speak about both the reliability of the saving work of God in a person and also that one who has received this salvation can be preserved in faith by God AND also can fall awayfrom Christ by their own englect of their faith or some trial that sorely tests their faith unto apostasy.
As believers we are to guard our faith and to pray to endure unto the end. We are to treat those who 's faith has been sorely weakened with compassion and true concern for them to return to Christ. He seeks the lost.
Let me say right up front that it is not our job to decide who can or has become saved and who might not have. That is God's business not our business. Just like God's Elective program is God's business not ours. And God did not elect any one to salvation because they were in any way righteous. We are ALL by nature dirty rotten sinners deserving of the wrath of God because of our rebellion against Him. It is only by God's Mercy that anyone becomes saved and if we have or do become saved it is because God chose us, paid the full penalty for our sins required by the Law of God, then applied that salvation to us at some time during our life when we become Born Again, and He adopts us and makes us His child, and much more.
This is a salvation that is guaranteed to be accomplished in the life of every one of God's elect and cannot be lost. God may save us in the womb, like John the Baptist. Or He may save us in the last moments of our Life, like the thief on the cross. Or we may be like Paul with a knowledge of the scripture but still unsaved until Acts 9. And this is a salvation that CANNOT be lost because "God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure" ( Phil 2:13).
The Bible is clear that our salvation in no way depends upon anything that we do. Salvation is 100% the work of God alone. Our faith, our "good works", our endurance and much more are the RESULT of our salvation, NEVER THE CAUSE. Read Ezekiel 36, read Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, read the whole Bible because everything in the Bible relates in some way to God's Judgement and Salvation Program.
No matter how sinful or rebellious we have been, no matter how many times we have rejected the Gospel, as long as we are still living, up until the Last Day, we may still be one of God's Elect, we may still cry out to God for His Mercy in the very real hope that God might save us. Just like the Ninevites did when Jonah preached a message of Judgement to them.
If you read over my comments in this thread and others, including the scripture passages quoted, I think you will find my understanding on some of what the Bible teaches regarding God's Judgement for sin, the Nature of God's Salvation Program, and the sequence of end time events. And most important, the authority of the Bible and how God declares we should approach and interpret His Word.
Much of my understanding is different than what you are suggesting here and in some of your past comments I have read.
Rather than repeat all that here, I'm happy to address my understanding, or lack thereof, of any specific scriptures you wish to discuss.
May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we continue to read and study His Word, the Bible.
You said "Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect".
I truly believe ( 2 Thessalonians. 2:3) disproves that statement David, If not then please show me where this is wrong.
The words (falling away) are #646 in Greek; it means defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] forsake, divorce,
(writing of) divorcement.
This verse is proof that those who are ((falling away)) was True Believers in Jesus Christ.
How else would you explain their receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ?
How else would you explain the "[apostasy"]?
Or the falling away from the truth?
(falling away) is a defection from truth?
Jesus Christ is the truth ( Jn. 14:6) They fall away from Jesus Christ.
["apostasy"] means ((An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith)) which brings about them receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ.
Those who fall away in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) ((were)) True Believers in Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during the Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy. ( 1Pet 4:17)
2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The "man of sin" is Satan himself. And 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about the general condition within the churches where the Bible is no longer the ultimate authority. It is NOT talking about True Believers "falling away" in any sense. In fact True Believes are commanded to flee the churches during the time of the Great Tribulation. (Read Matt 24 and Mark 13).
The reason you and I are understanding the verses you quote differently is that we we have a very different understanding of what the Bible teaches about the Nature of Salvation itself and what it means to be "saved", i.e. to become Born Again.
I have tried to be clear what I believe regarding this and have quoted a few of the many verses that teach this.
Perhaps you might explain your understanding of some of the important aspects of Salvation.
What is our condition before God "saves" us and what does it mean to be "saved", i.e. Born Again?
David you said yesterday in one of your comments "I am personally convinced that we are in the period of the Great Tribulation".
Today you said "2 Thes 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy".
So wouldn't that be happening right now?
The Word of God tells us that True Believers are the church!
No offence David but it seems you are contradicting yourself here.
My last comment showing the (falling away) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) to be True Believers is accurate Biblically. If we allow the Word of God to interpret itself, then we will be led into all Truth! If we try to interpret the Word of God ourselves, then very often we get confusion, and deception which can cause our understanding of other parts of Scripture to be misinterpretation, and deception.
Then many are deceiving themselves, and others, often without even knowing it.
Truth matters David. Without an open mind we cannot be led by the Holy Spirit.
What is man's condition before we have become saved?
What does it mean to become saved, i.e. to become Born Again?
How do you understand, for example, Galatians 2:16-21 and similar passages in Romans?
How do TRUE BELIEVERS become apostate and come under the wrath of God if Christ has paid the full penalty demanded by the Law of God for their sins? Is that not double jeopardy?
If we hold a gospel that is CONDITIONAL upon something we do or do not do, is that not a gospel of grace plus works. In other words are you not saying "Christ has done His part and now its up to us"?
Are these not questions that you must face if you hold a gospel where we can lose our salvation.
And yes, the ETERNAL CHURCH spoken of in the Bible is made up of ALL TRUE BELIEVERS throughout history. And that church cannot become apostate. But every local church and congregation, just like National Israel of the Old Testament, has NOT been made up of ALL true believers and that is the church that becomes apostate, as had National Israel by the time of the Cross.
Thank you for your reply. Everybody is a sinner before they are saved David. And what it means to be saved is you are given Eternal Life and will be delivered, saved (we will meet the Lord in the clouds) before the wrath of God is poured out on all the disobedient ones who are left on the earth. ( Jn. 3:36).
We are told in ( Acts. 3:19) ((Repent ye)) therefore, and be converted, ((that your sins may be blotted out)), when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
(So repentance is required to have your sins blotted out) Some would call that works, would you David?
( Romans. 3:21-25) v21 "But now the righteousness of God (without the law) is manifested"
v24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
v25 "through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness (for the remission of sins) ((that are past)) through the forbearance of God" (sins that are past)!
( 1 John. 1:8-10) (We must confess our sins, (REPENT) of our sins before our sins will be forgiven and we will be cleansed from all unrighteousness)
( Acts. 26:20) Tells us "that they should repent and turn to God, (AND DO WORKS) meet for repentance"
David you asked a very interesting question. you asked "How do TRUE BELIEVERS become apostate and come under the wrath of God if Christ has paid the full penalty demanded by the law of God for their sins? Is that not double jeopardy"?
The meaning of the word "apostasy" will give you the answer David, If you truly want the Truth.
["apostasy"] means (An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith)
So the one's (falling away) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) are those who abandon what they once professed, who depart from their faith, the (falling away) are those who totally abandon their Christian faith. These would be the same as ( 1 Tim. 4:1) ((some shall depart from the faith, falling away)).
There are many commandments in the Bible related to Salvation. Some of these are "Repent", "Believe", "Endure", etc. And our obedience to ANY commandment of God, i.e. the Law of God, is a WORK that we do. But our Repentance, our Belief, our Endurance does NOT save us. No obedience to the Law of God can save us. Our Repentance, our Belief, our Endurance in a way that is pleasing to God is the RESULT of our Salvation, not the CAUSE of our Salvation. It is the EVIDENCE of our Salvation as God "works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure".
These WORKS are also a yardstick to help us determine whether or not we have truly become "saved". "Examine yourself to see if you be in the faith", "Make your calling and election sure", etc. All warnings and admonitions given to us by God's Mercy so that if we do not see these things in our life, we may still cry out to God in the very real Hope that He might save us. And if we do see these characteristics in our life with an earnest and ongoing desire to be obedient to His Commandments, it gives us assurance that God has indeed "saved" us and we are safe and secure in His everlasting arms. Despite the fact that we do fall into sin again and again when we take our eyes off of Christ; and God may need to chastise us, as a father does his son, to cause us grow in grace. Praise God for so great salvation!
Is the Gospel of the Bible a gospel of Grace Alone or is it a gospel of Grace plus Works?
We can find many verses in the Bible that if isolated from the rest of the Bible could lead us down a path of believing that we must DO something to become saved. And if that is the case, then we can certainly DO something, or fail to DO something to lose our salvation. But when we look at everything in the Bible that teaches us about the Nature of Salvation, we find that is not true.
Many people use the term ACCEPTING CHRIST or DECIDING FOR CHRIST. These are things that WE DO. Just like obedience to any commandment of God is a WORK that WE DO. And no WORK that WE DO can save us. That is a gospel of grace plus works. It is not the gospel of the Bible.
Read Galatians very carefully. Read Romans very carefully. Read the entire chapter.
Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The True Gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does ALL THE WORK in saving us and KEEPING US. This must be the case because we BY NATURE are DEAD spiritually. It is when GOD SAVES US that he raises us to spiritual life. A life that CANNOT be lost. A life that is ETERNAL LIFE. And there will be a "want to" in our life to keep the Law, but it is NOT our obedience to the Law that saves or keeps us. We must make that distinction.
In coming to an understanding of what it means to be "saved" we must compare scripture with scripture and not isolate verses form the rest of the Bible.
I really don't think I'm isolating verses in the Bible to come to this belief.
You did not answer my question David, Do you think repenting of our sins is works?
In Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 Jesus says to 6 of the 7 churches "I know (thy works)"
To the other one He says "for I have not found (thy works) perfect before God".
To the church of Ephesus He says in ( Rev. 2:5) "((except thou repent))."
to the church of Pergamos He says in ( Rev. 2:16) "((Repent or else)) I will come upon thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth".
To the church of Thyatira He says in ( Rev. 2:22) "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, ((except they repent)) of their deeds".
To the church of Sardis He says in ( Rev. 3:3) "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, ((and repent))".
To the church of Laodicea He says in ( Rev. 2:19) "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, ((and repent)).
We are told in ( Acts. 17:30) "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where ((to repent)).
These verses are very clear Jesus is speaking of ((their works)), and also ((repentance for their sins)).
( Rev. 2:16) Jesus tells them Repent or else He will fight against them with the sword of His mouth.
Do you believe (repenting) of our sins is works David?
These haven't rejected (apostatized from) Christ but have perverted God's Word by their apostatizing from revealed & accepted Truth (the Word of God as given by Jesus & His apostles), and promoted their own beliefs & interpretations, thereby causing many to err & turn to unrighteous beliefs & practises. And I have not shared this here to bring on 'a KJB vs other translation' argument (though there is evidence that any grave corruption of the Word can lead to much error in belief as well).
But maybe we should consider that in light of the many Scriptures that show that a true child of God is sealed, secured, & ministered to by the Holy Spirit, and could never leave nor desire to depart from such a great abundant salvation, that the possibility of what Paul was presenting, is that this 'falling away' could well be that God's Word would increasingly be mishandled in the days after he left this Earth, giving over to a 'doctrine of devils' teaching. That this 'falling away' & the 'man of sin' being revealed, shows just how far Christ's Church has departed from the Body of Truth, and this 'man of sin' could well be a religious person but giving no regard to God's Word, rather submitting his own word as God's Voice. Of course, those who are believers, whether in the congregation of such apostasy from the Word, would soon depart, wanting only to hear the Truth of God's Word, but those who have no such discerning spirit, would readily pay him heed. Even now, as was in the past ( 1 John 2:18,19), there would be imposters, even among the clergy, that have infiltrated the Church. So I just share this, an option here, as we need to keep the matter open concerning 'apostasy', since Paul hasn't directly stated in what manner this 'apostasy' would happen, whether concerning true believers or concerning God's Word & those professing to be Christian. Blessings.
I agree that many today are departing from the Word of God, we are told that will happen in ( 2 Tim. 4:3-4).
You said "Unfortunately the ( 2 Thess. 2:2-5) passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this "apostasy".
This I do respectfully disagree with Chris, if we look at the True meaning of the words (falling away) in the Greek language it is #646; it means defection from truth, (properly the state) ["apostasy"] forsake, divorce, (writing of) divorcement.
((a (writing of) divorcement from what?))
A departure from the (Christian faith) would be rejecting Jesus Christ not the Word of God.
We see the marriage supper of the Lamb taking place in ( Rev. 19:7-9) Those who fall away receive the (writing of) divorcement after the Abandonment of their ((Christian faith)) a total desertion or departure ((from their faith))
Those who fall away (depart from or desert their Christian faith) will not be present at this marriage supper of the Lamb.
( 1 Tim. 4:1) "that in the latter times" (This is speaking of the Lastdays) "some shall (depart) from the (faith)"
The word (depart) is #868; it means to remove, i.e. actively instigate to revolt, to desist, desert, depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
The word (faith) is #4102; persuasion, i.e. credence; morally conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher, especially ((reliance upon Christ for salvation)).
This has to be True Believers in Jesus Christ (1st) to desert or abandon their Christian faith. And (2nd) to receive a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ for their departure of their faith. And it is written this happens in the (latter times) which would be today.
Hi Jimbob. You wrote well though if I could just highlight the 'apostasy' (apostasia), as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, & consider what the Apostle Paul was speaking of here. I realize that it would be simple to understand his statement as applying to believers, before that day of Christ's coming, that some would apostatize by rejecting Christ going back into the world or to embrace another religion. But are we correct to believe that this was what Paul was speaking of in light of his other writings & that of our Lord? (refs. John 10:27-29; John 6:37; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24,25; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19).
When we look at the definition of 'apostasy', it is as you have given ("An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith"). But 'apostasy' is not simply restricted to a 'total departure from one's faith' but also 'a total departure or abandonment of one's principles, party, cause' (and one could even add 'departure from the Word of God which lays out the principles and Truths of doctrine & righteous living').
Unfortunately, the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-5 passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this 'apostasy'. Obviously, the Thessalonian believers probably knew much more than we have been given (v5 'remember...I told you these things?'). Clearly, this apostasy doesn't relate to principles or causes of the world, because its context shows that Paul is speaking of an apostasy that will affect believers in some way. The question then is: is it the rejection of Christ altogether, or a departure/rejection of the Truth of God's Word? But isn't that the same thing, one could ask? I think you will agree Jimbob, that this rejection of Truth & promotion of unbiblical interpretations & lifestyle, has been going on for a long time - from within the Church itself.
Hi David0921. Just to intrude to this good thread; I know that we've not found agreement on some things (even about presently being in the Great Tribulation), but in the matter of a (true) believer's eternal security, I do heartily agree with you. What God has saved & secured cannot be lost.
My sense is that those who believe that a Christian's security in salvation can be lost and/or that a Christian can never be sure that he is saved until that day when all have to stand before God's Throne, stands flawed, not understanding these fundamental Truths (both from Scripture & experience). And these Truths are: when we speak of a Christian, are we understanding only in a spiritual REFORMATION or in a TRANSFORMATION. And secondly, with the Christian's claimed faith: is it seen & believed by him as a PROFESSION or as a POSSESSION.
If we take the time to analyse these spiritual positions in our own lives, & yet not to be used for the judgement of others, then we can come close to understanding how a believer (whether a new 'convert' who responds to the Gospel invitation, or to an aged 'believer' who eventually allows sin to take hold & departs from the Lord) how he actually stands in regards to a true conversion & a faith that saves.
When we take all the Scriptures that supposedly prove that a Christian's salvation can be lost & all the Scriptures that prove that it cannot be lost, then we should apply those rules to see how a 'Christian' ought to behave & how the Work of God, His Spirit, does a complete, lasting, irrevocable work in the truly born again person. It is true that when we see a faithful Spirit-filled believer go the distance, never denying the Lord & His Work of Grace in his life, we know that that person has finished his course well. But the teachings & admonitions of the apostles (& of pastors today) were to encourage, warn & assist in spiritual growth & not to face God's Discipline. Those who had not the Spirit of Christ were none of His ( Rom 8:9).
Haven't heard from you for awhile. Welcome back on here.
This Scripture in Hebrews is difficult in respects to the danger to those who have turned from Jesus after once walking with Him. Hell is real and the destination of all who are not in Christ Jesus-even some we know and love. How much we should pray that our own faith will endure to the end and that of those we know as believers. How much we ought to pray for all whom we know who are non believers. We pray for God to provide many opportunities for us to share the gospel. There is much need amid all the evil we see and know about. So much more we do not see and know about. But God knows all and is ever working to draw people into this life of faith in Jesus.
Keep your spirit up for God truly is in control of this world and of history. Compared to our eternal life with Christ , this mortal life is really very short. God will give us strength to endure and comfort in times of trials. He will guide us through evil times and cause us to rejoice in Him.
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened"....."If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance".
Don't these people realize that they spit in the face of Jesus and threw away their salvation???? There's no 2nd chance for them. Many false preachers/deceivers are in the world, teaching non-Biblical nonsense. I see billions of people sliding down a greased pole to hell.
I cringe whenever I hear of "Christians" who ditched Jesus in favor of Islam, or any other "religion".
Matthew 17:5
"While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which (God) said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."
Christians get a bad rap. They are commissioned to spread the Word that only Jesus can save humans from their sins. Christians try to warn others that if they don't repent of their sins and seek Jesus, they will go to hell.
As a Christian (but not a very good one) I'm so sick of the wicked and their in-your-face debauchery. Christians are accused of being controlling, hypocritical and hateful. It's so disheartening and exhausting to try to talk to these people. Should I grieve for anyone who knowingly rejects Jesus and dies in their sins??? I'm sure God and Jesus are broken hearted. Somewhere people got the idea that Hell will be one big party. NOT!
This would have to be True Believers falling away for it to say ["apostasy"] divorce, and (writing of divorcement).
Thank you for your post.
God Bless.
Hebrews 6:4 is NOT suggesting that someone whom God has "saved" can lose their salvation. That conclusion is a perfect example that demonstrates how important it is that in arriving at any conclusion, we MUST compare spiritual things with spiritual. And we MUST NOT isolate any verse or passage from the rest of the Bible.
When we look at everything in the Bible that speaks about the Nature of Salvation, God teaches that salvation is 100% the work of God Himself.
All of mankind because of Adam's sin is DEAD in sin and CANNOT and WILL NOT turn to God. We are by nature in rebellion against God, both in body and soul. Every time we commit sin we are breaking the Law of God for which the penalty is eternal death. And we come under the Wrath of God. But that is not the end of the story.
God in His incomprehensible MERCY has chosen a remnant, the Elect, from before the foundation of the world to save. This required that God in the person of the LORD Jesus Christ to take upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that His Elect would ever commit and bear the penalty for their sin, the wrath of God, eternal death, and then be raised again to eternal life. All of this was actually done before God ever created the world.
When God "saves" one of His Elect, He performs a very real miracle of giving them a brand new resurrected soul which can never die and which can never sin and God will complete their salvation by giving them their resurrected spiritual body at the Last Day.
God's elective program is God's business. But one whom God has "saved" will not fall away and continue in unbelief. We CANNOT lose our salvation.
No matter how sinful or rebellious we have been or are now, it is still the day of salvation and we may cry out to God in the very real hope that God might save us. Read Jonah 3. Read Ezekiel 36.
I believe that Hebrews 6 is not talking about individuals. It is talking about the churches of our day that have become apostate. 1 Pet 4:17
I'll keep this short.
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. ( Ps. 69:28)
The word (blotted) is #4229; it means to erase, abolish, blot out, destroy, utterly, wipe (away, out)
People are blotted out of the book of the living! This sounds like they are ((loosing)) salvation that they did have, does it not?
Please explain this verse?
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ezekiel 36:24-29
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Jude 1:24, 25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
The true gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does 100% of the work in saving us and our works cannot and do not contribute to our salvation in any way whatsoever.
If we have become saved it is because God has chosen us, paid for our sins, drawn us, and saved us. And He will therefore KEEP us.
If we are following a gospel where we can lose our salvation, we are not following the gospel of the Bible.
Thank you for the reply, but you didn't explain that verse. Here's a few more if you would like to try to explain them.
(1) ( Deut. 9:13-14) v14 The LORD says "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they".
(2) ( Rev. 3:3-5) v5 "and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life".
(3) ( Heb. 3:6) "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, ((if)) we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end".
(4) ( James. 2:14-18) v14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? v15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food. v16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? v17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. v18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(5) ( 2 Pet. 2:20-22) v20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. v21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. v22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb. The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(6) ( 2 Thess. 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a ((falling away)) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect.
There are many passages in the Bible that implore us to " Examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith". And "to make are calling and election sure". And if we are one of God's elect, we will ultimately do just that by crying to God for mercy that he might save us. This includes those that may have come under the hearing of the gospel, and may have given some outward evidence of salvation, but had never become saved.
If we have a gospel where we can take some action to lose our salvation, then we have a gospel of works. And that gospel will never save us. And it is not the gospel of the Bible. Read carefully the passages that I quoted. And there are many others.
Rev 14:11-12 - this draws a distinction between people burning in hell and people of God (Christians) who "keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" Those who are inbetween or lukewarm are rejected and won't be saved: Rev 3:16.
Why would the verse say "remain faithful to Jesus" if they are already "saved" people of God? That is conditional. If people chose to not be faithful to Jesus overall they probably aren't people of God.
Rev 13:8 everyone on earth will worship the beast and will burn in hell for eternity according to Rev 14:11.
Rev 2:23. Jesus will repay each according to your deeds.
Rev 2:25. Hold on to the teachings you have until Jesus comes.
Rev 2:5 talks about falling away from the faith- they need to repent.
Rev 1:8 Jesus is the Lord God.
Jude 1:20 Building yourself up in faith. Suggests that building up and keeping the faith takes effort and practice like a muscle.
The scripture is clear what it means. It is the truth. What some people are saying is not the truth and not based on scripture. Beware of that.
[Comment Removed]
Thanks for these verses about enduring in faith until the end. From these we can know that there is an enemy who wishes to undo us in regards to our faith in our Lord. But we have the Holy Spirit in us to strengthen us in faith and empower us to endure. Thank God for this!
But these exhortations tell us that we should not be lax in our walk with God nor take everything lightly when it comes to our relationship with Him. We should be on guard against the schemes of the enemy, the draw of worldliness, and the deceitfulness o our own hearts due to the sinful nature that must be crucified daily.
The Bible speaks of believers falling away from Christ. We should be diligent for ourselves and watchful of other brethren to help them when they are wavering in faith. The gospel is always in season to hear for ourselves and for those we know who are in doubt concerning their salvation and on the verge of turning away from Christ
Again, Adam, so good to hear from you.
My next question then is so if you believe there are many Christians who are serving in the most prominent positions (such as pastors and worship leaders) whom you claim could have never been Christians, that means you think many potential Christians today are not Christians. So, how do you know who is a Christian then? Are you a Christian? What criteria makes someone a Christian or not?
If someone says a sinners prayer after a message and responds and chooses to follow Jesus is that person not a Christian? If he is, then how would he be a Christian, but a Christian pastor who in the future may stumble currently isn't?
As some shared above for every verse that says "I will never blot you out" of the book of life, etc, there's at least double warning about staying on course and to not fall away. So, judging my sheer quantity of scripture, it heavily sides with that, yes, people can fall away. Most of Paul's letters were to churches (Christians) warning them.
Now I must ask WHEN exactly do you believe you are "saved" from hell? Before or after the day of judgment?
God bless.
I have often heard from those who hold to a "once saved always saved" doctrinal position that those who fall away were never saved to begin with.
I wonder if they have ever told someone who falls away that they were never saved before falling away even though the person has called on the name of the Lord for salvation and professed faith in Jesus for salvation.
Such an approach towards people who fall away reflects doubt in Gid and His promises to save those who put their faith in Him and in His Son, Jesus. How can one be sure that they are saved if they may fall into a backslidden condition at any time and then be told that they were never saved to begin with? This is a very cruel way to address those believers who turn from Jesus. We do know if God will turn them back to Him at some time in the future.
We should encourage every believer to trust what God has promised in Scripture about believing on Jesus for salvation. We should never cast doubt on the veracity of what the Scriptures tell us on how we are saved-by faith in Jesus. Those we know who have turned away from the faith given to them by the Holy Spirit need to be encouraged to repent and return to Jesus, not tell them that their conversion was never real or valid.
Thank you for giving a balanced accounting of what the Scriptures actually say concerning salvation, assurance of salvation, and the possibility of true believers falling away from faith. The Scriptures do speak about both the reliability of the saving work of God in a person and also that one who has received this salvation can be preserved in faith by God AND also can fall awayfrom Christ by their own englect of their faith or some trial that sorely tests their faith unto apostasy.
As believers we are to guard our faith and to pray to endure unto the end. We are to treat those who 's faith has been sorely weakened with compassion and true concern for them to return to Christ. He seeks the lost.
Let me say right up front that it is not our job to decide who can or has become saved and who might not have. That is God's business not our business. Just like God's Elective program is God's business not ours. And God did not elect any one to salvation because they were in any way righteous. We are ALL by nature dirty rotten sinners deserving of the wrath of God because of our rebellion against Him. It is only by God's Mercy that anyone becomes saved and if we have or do become saved it is because God chose us, paid the full penalty for our sins required by the Law of God, then applied that salvation to us at some time during our life when we become Born Again, and He adopts us and makes us His child, and much more.
This is a salvation that is guaranteed to be accomplished in the life of every one of God's elect and cannot be lost. God may save us in the womb, like John the Baptist. Or He may save us in the last moments of our Life, like the thief on the cross. Or we may be like Paul with a knowledge of the scripture but still unsaved until Acts 9. And this is a salvation that CANNOT be lost because "God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure" ( Phil 2:13).
The Bible is clear that our salvation in no way depends upon anything that we do. Salvation is 100% the work of God alone. Our faith, our "good works", our endurance and much more are the RESULT of our salvation, NEVER THE CAUSE. Read Ezekiel 36, read Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, read the whole Bible because everything in the Bible relates in some way to God's Judgement and Salvation Program.
No matter how sinful or rebellious we have been, no matter how many times we have rejected the Gospel, as long as we are still living, up until the Last Day, we may still be one of God's Elect, we may still cry out to God for His Mercy in the very real hope that God might save us. Just like the Ninevites did when Jonah preached a message of Judgement to them.
Psalm 34:18
Psalm 51:17
If you read over my comments in this thread and others, including the scripture passages quoted, I think you will find my understanding on some of what the Bible teaches regarding God's Judgement for sin, the Nature of God's Salvation Program, and the sequence of end time events. And most important, the authority of the Bible and how God declares we should approach and interpret His Word.
Much of my understanding is different than what you are suggesting here and in some of your past comments I have read.
Rather than repeat all that here, I'm happy to address my understanding, or lack thereof, of any specific scriptures you wish to discuss.
May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we continue to read and study His Word, the Bible.
You said "Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect".
I truly believe ( 2 Thessalonians. 2:3) disproves that statement David, If not then please show me where this is wrong.
The words (falling away) are #646 in Greek; it means defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] forsake, divorce,
(writing of) divorcement.
This verse is proof that those who are ((falling away)) was True Believers in Jesus Christ.
How else would you explain their receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ?
How else would you explain the "[apostasy"]?
Or the falling away from the truth?
(falling away) is a defection from truth?
Jesus Christ is the truth ( Jn. 14:6) They fall away from Jesus Christ.
["apostasy"] means ((An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith)) which brings about them receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ.
Those who fall away in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) ((were)) True Believers in Jesus Christ.
Blessings.
2 Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during the Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy. ( 1Pet 4:17)
2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The "man of sin" is Satan himself. And 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about the general condition within the churches where the Bible is no longer the ultimate authority. It is NOT talking about True Believers "falling away" in any sense. In fact True Believes are commanded to flee the churches during the time of the Great Tribulation. (Read Matt 24 and Mark 13).
The reason you and I are understanding the verses you quote differently is that we we have a very different understanding of what the Bible teaches about the Nature of Salvation itself and what it means to be "saved", i.e. to become Born Again.
I have tried to be clear what I believe regarding this and have quoted a few of the many verses that teach this.
Perhaps you might explain your understanding of some of the important aspects of Salvation.
What is our condition before God "saves" us and what does it mean to be "saved", i.e. Born Again?
David you said yesterday in one of your comments "I am personally convinced that we are in the period of the Great Tribulation".
Today you said "2 Thes 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy".
So wouldn't that be happening right now?
The Word of God tells us that True Believers are the church!
No offence David but it seems you are contradicting yourself here.
My last comment showing the (falling away) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) to be True Believers is accurate Biblically. If we allow the Word of God to interpret itself, then we will be led into all Truth! If we try to interpret the Word of God ourselves, then very often we get confusion, and deception which can cause our understanding of other parts of Scripture to be misinterpretation, and deception.
Then many are deceiving themselves, and others, often without even knowing it.
Truth matters David. Without an open mind we cannot be led by the Holy Spirit.
Thank you or your reply.
Blessings.
I would respectfully ask you again.
What is man's condition before we have become saved?
What does it mean to become saved, i.e. to become Born Again?
How do you understand, for example, Galatians 2:16-21 and similar passages in Romans?
How do TRUE BELIEVERS become apostate and come under the wrath of God if Christ has paid the full penalty demanded by the Law of God for their sins? Is that not double jeopardy?
If we hold a gospel that is CONDITIONAL upon something we do or do not do, is that not a gospel of grace plus works. In other words are you not saying "Christ has done His part and now its up to us"?
Are these not questions that you must face if you hold a gospel where we can lose our salvation.
And yes, the ETERNAL CHURCH spoken of in the Bible is made up of ALL TRUE BELIEVERS throughout history. And that church cannot become apostate. But every local church and congregation, just like National Israel of the Old Testament, has NOT been made up of ALL true believers and that is the church that becomes apostate, as had National Israel by the time of the Cross.
Thank you for your reply. Everybody is a sinner before they are saved David. And what it means to be saved is you are given Eternal Life and will be delivered, saved (we will meet the Lord in the clouds) before the wrath of God is poured out on all the disobedient ones who are left on the earth. ( Jn. 3:36).
We are told in ( Acts. 3:19) ((Repent ye)) therefore, and be converted, ((that your sins may be blotted out)), when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
(So repentance is required to have your sins blotted out) Some would call that works, would you David?
( Romans. 3:21-25) v21 "But now the righteousness of God (without the law) is manifested"
v24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
v25 "through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness (for the remission of sins) ((that are past)) through the forbearance of God" (sins that are past)!
( 1 John. 1:8-10) (We must confess our sins, (REPENT) of our sins before our sins will be forgiven and we will be cleansed from all unrighteousness)
( Acts. 26:20) Tells us "that they should repent and turn to God, (AND DO WORKS) meet for repentance"
David you asked a very interesting question. you asked "How do TRUE BELIEVERS become apostate and come under the wrath of God if Christ has paid the full penalty demanded by the law of God for their sins? Is that not double jeopardy"?
The meaning of the word "apostasy" will give you the answer David, If you truly want the Truth.
["apostasy"] means (An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith)
So the one's (falling away) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) are those who abandon what they once professed, who depart from their faith, the (falling away) are those who totally abandon their Christian faith. These would be the same as ( 1 Tim. 4:1) ((some shall depart from the faith, falling away)).
Blessings to you David.
It really comes down to this (part 2).
There are many commandments in the Bible related to Salvation. Some of these are "Repent", "Believe", "Endure", etc. And our obedience to ANY commandment of God, i.e. the Law of God, is a WORK that we do. But our Repentance, our Belief, our Endurance does NOT save us. No obedience to the Law of God can save us. Our Repentance, our Belief, our Endurance in a way that is pleasing to God is the RESULT of our Salvation, not the CAUSE of our Salvation. It is the EVIDENCE of our Salvation as God "works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure".
These WORKS are also a yardstick to help us determine whether or not we have truly become "saved". "Examine yourself to see if you be in the faith", "Make your calling and election sure", etc. All warnings and admonitions given to us by God's Mercy so that if we do not see these things in our life, we may still cry out to God in the very real Hope that He might save us. And if we do see these characteristics in our life with an earnest and ongoing desire to be obedient to His Commandments, it gives us assurance that God has indeed "saved" us and we are safe and secure in His everlasting arms. Despite the fact that we do fall into sin again and again when we take our eyes off of Christ; and God may need to chastise us, as a father does his son, to cause us grow in grace. Praise God for so great salvation!
It really comes down to this.
Is the Gospel of the Bible a gospel of Grace Alone or is it a gospel of Grace plus Works?
We can find many verses in the Bible that if isolated from the rest of the Bible could lead us down a path of believing that we must DO something to become saved. And if that is the case, then we can certainly DO something, or fail to DO something to lose our salvation. But when we look at everything in the Bible that teaches us about the Nature of Salvation, we find that is not true.
Many people use the term ACCEPTING CHRIST or DECIDING FOR CHRIST. These are things that WE DO. Just like obedience to any commandment of God is a WORK that WE DO. And no WORK that WE DO can save us. That is a gospel of grace plus works. It is not the gospel of the Bible.
Read Galatians very carefully. Read Romans very carefully. Read the entire chapter.
Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The True Gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does ALL THE WORK in saving us and KEEPING US. This must be the case because we BY NATURE are DEAD spiritually. It is when GOD SAVES US that he raises us to spiritual life. A life that CANNOT be lost. A life that is ETERNAL LIFE. And there will be a "want to" in our life to keep the Law, but it is NOT our obedience to the Law that saves or keeps us. We must make that distinction.
In coming to an understanding of what it means to be "saved" we must compare scripture with scripture and not isolate verses form the rest of the Bible.
I would like to here your answer to this one question David, I did ask several times and you did not answer it.
Do you think that (repenting) of our sins is considered to be works?
Thank you David,
Blessings to you.
I responded to you on that question on 5/27. The response is entitled "It really comes down to this" part 2.
And yes, Repentance is a work. Any obedience to any command of God is a "work" that we do. And we are certainly commanded to Repent.
I really don't think I'm isolating verses in the Bible to come to this belief.
You did not answer my question David, Do you think repenting of our sins is works?
In Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 Jesus says to 6 of the 7 churches "I know (thy works)"
To the other one He says "for I have not found (thy works) perfect before God".
To the church of Ephesus He says in ( Rev. 2:5) "((except thou repent))."
to the church of Pergamos He says in ( Rev. 2:16) "((Repent or else)) I will come upon thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth".
To the church of Thyatira He says in ( Rev. 2:22) "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, ((except they repent)) of their deeds".
To the church of Sardis He says in ( Rev. 3:3) "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, ((and repent))".
To the church of Laodicea He says in ( Rev. 2:19) "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, ((and repent)).
We are told in ( Acts. 17:30) "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where ((to repent)).
These verses are very clear Jesus is speaking of ((their works)), and also ((repentance for their sins)).
( Rev. 2:16) Jesus tells them Repent or else He will fight against them with the sword of His mouth.
Do you believe (repenting) of our sins is works David?
Blessings.
These haven't rejected (apostatized from) Christ but have perverted God's Word by their apostatizing from revealed & accepted Truth (the Word of God as given by Jesus & His apostles), and promoted their own beliefs & interpretations, thereby causing many to err & turn to unrighteous beliefs & practises. And I have not shared this here to bring on 'a KJB vs other translation' argument (though there is evidence that any grave corruption of the Word can lead to much error in belief as well).
But maybe we should consider that in light of the many Scriptures that show that a true child of God is sealed, secured, & ministered to by the Holy Spirit, and could never leave nor desire to depart from such a great abundant salvation, that the possibility of what Paul was presenting, is that this 'falling away' could well be that God's Word would increasingly be mishandled in the days after he left this Earth, giving over to a 'doctrine of devils' teaching. That this 'falling away' & the 'man of sin' being revealed, shows just how far Christ's Church has departed from the Body of Truth, and this 'man of sin' could well be a religious person but giving no regard to God's Word, rather submitting his own word as God's Voice. Of course, those who are believers, whether in the congregation of such apostasy from the Word, would soon depart, wanting only to hear the Truth of God's Word, but those who have no such discerning spirit, would readily pay him heed. Even now, as was in the past ( 1 John 2:18,19), there would be imposters, even among the clergy, that have infiltrated the Church. So I just share this, an option here, as we need to keep the matter open concerning 'apostasy', since Paul hasn't directly stated in what manner this 'apostasy' would happen, whether concerning true believers or concerning God's Word & those professing to be Christian. Blessings.
I agree that many today are departing from the Word of God, we are told that will happen in ( 2 Tim. 4:3-4).
You said "Unfortunately the ( 2 Thess. 2:2-5) passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this "apostasy".
This I do respectfully disagree with Chris, if we look at the True meaning of the words (falling away) in the Greek language it is #646; it means defection from truth, (properly the state) ["apostasy"] forsake, divorce, (writing of) divorcement.
((a (writing of) divorcement from what?))
A departure from the (Christian faith) would be rejecting Jesus Christ not the Word of God.
We see the marriage supper of the Lamb taking place in ( Rev. 19:7-9) Those who fall away receive the (writing of) divorcement after the Abandonment of their ((Christian faith)) a total desertion or departure ((from their faith))
Those who fall away (depart from or desert their Christian faith) will not be present at this marriage supper of the Lamb.
( 1 Tim. 4:1) "that in the latter times" (This is speaking of the Lastdays) "some shall (depart) from the (faith)"
The word (depart) is #868; it means to remove, i.e. actively instigate to revolt, to desist, desert, depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
The word (faith) is #4102; persuasion, i.e. credence; morally conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher, especially ((reliance upon Christ for salvation)).
This has to be True Believers in Jesus Christ (1st) to desert or abandon their Christian faith. And (2nd) to receive a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ for their departure of their faith. And it is written this happens in the (latter times) which would be today.
Again thank you Chris. God Bless.
Hi Jimbob. You wrote well though if I could just highlight the 'apostasy' (apostasia), as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, & consider what the Apostle Paul was speaking of here. I realize that it would be simple to understand his statement as applying to believers, before that day of Christ's coming, that some would apostatize by rejecting Christ going back into the world or to embrace another religion. But are we correct to believe that this was what Paul was speaking of in light of his other writings & that of our Lord? (refs. John 10:27-29; John 6:37; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24,25; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19).
When we look at the definition of 'apostasy', it is as you have given ("An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith"). But 'apostasy' is not simply restricted to a 'total departure from one's faith' but also 'a total departure or abandonment of one's principles, party, cause' (and one could even add 'departure from the Word of God which lays out the principles and Truths of doctrine & righteous living').
Unfortunately, the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-5 passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this 'apostasy'. Obviously, the Thessalonian believers probably knew much more than we have been given (v5 'remember...I told you these things?'). Clearly, this apostasy doesn't relate to principles or causes of the world, because its context shows that Paul is speaking of an apostasy that will affect believers in some way. The question then is: is it the rejection of Christ altogether, or a departure/rejection of the Truth of God's Word? But isn't that the same thing, one could ask? I think you will agree Jimbob, that this rejection of Truth & promotion of unbiblical interpretations & lifestyle, has been going on for a long time - from within the Church itself.
My sense is that those who believe that a Christian's security in salvation can be lost and/or that a Christian can never be sure that he is saved until that day when all have to stand before God's Throne, stands flawed, not understanding these fundamental Truths (both from Scripture & experience). And these Truths are: when we speak of a Christian, are we understanding only in a spiritual REFORMATION or in a TRANSFORMATION. And secondly, with the Christian's claimed faith: is it seen & believed by him as a PROFESSION or as a POSSESSION.
If we take the time to analyse these spiritual positions in our own lives, & yet not to be used for the judgement of others, then we can come close to understanding how a believer (whether a new 'convert' who responds to the Gospel invitation, or to an aged 'believer' who eventually allows sin to take hold & departs from the Lord) how he actually stands in regards to a true conversion & a faith that saves.
When we take all the Scriptures that supposedly prove that a Christian's salvation can be lost & all the Scriptures that prove that it cannot be lost, then we should apply those rules to see how a 'Christian' ought to behave & how the Work of God, His Spirit, does a complete, lasting, irrevocable work in the truly born again person. It is true that when we see a faithful Spirit-filled believer go the distance, never denying the Lord & His Work of Grace in his life, we know that that person has finished his course well. But the teachings & admonitions of the apostles (& of pastors today) were to encourage, warn & assist in spiritual growth & not to face God's Discipline. Those who had not the Spirit of Christ were none of His ( Rom 8:9).
Haven't heard from you for awhile. Welcome back on here.
This Scripture in Hebrews is difficult in respects to the danger to those who have turned from Jesus after once walking with Him. Hell is real and the destination of all who are not in Christ Jesus-even some we know and love. How much we should pray that our own faith will endure to the end and that of those we know as believers. How much we ought to pray for all whom we know who are non believers. We pray for God to provide many opportunities for us to share the gospel. There is much need amid all the evil we see and know about. So much more we do not see and know about. But God knows all and is ever working to draw people into this life of faith in Jesus.
Yes, I am doing well.
Keep your spirit up for God truly is in control of this world and of history. Compared to our eternal life with Christ , this mortal life is really very short. God will give us strength to endure and comfort in times of trials. He will guide us through evil times and cause us to rejoice in Him.
Hope to here from you often, Dgjot.
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