Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Jema - 10 months ago
    Can anyone shed some light on Titus chapter 1 verse 2 ?
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Here is the basis of Jema's very important question.

    Quoting Jema.

    The thing that puzzles me is : 'promised before the world began' , where did Paul get this specific information from at that time ? I guess Paul was wise for his time , we know because we have the full Bible , old and new and we can discern the big picture . We can recognise that it was God's perpose all along , to creat a people who would love Him and want to be with Him , where and how did Paul find this out ?

    The only way this could be revealed to Paul is by divine intervention by the words of Christ assisted by the Holyspirit.

    Paul was sharing what was revealed to him as did the other Disciples and Apostles.

    The Holyspirit is our strength today, He assist our teaching and reveals truth to the blood tipped ear.

    The Ministry of the Holyspirit and our total dependency on him is paramount to the Christian fate.

    You see that also played out in

    1 Corinthians 3:1-23.
  • Carleton - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Good afternoon Friends, I would believe that Paul understood what he spoke and wrote by his own experience in being washed by regeneration and renewed by the Holy Ghost. With this being true, Paul understood the Promise was from the beginning.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Amen Carleton.

    By the Spirit of truth that worked in him mighty.

    Colossians 1:25-29.

    Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

    Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

    God bless you and Good night.
  • Carleton - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Likely too, Saul before conversion knew the Books of Moses well.

    "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15 KJV

    The LORD God spoke this to the serpent with Adam and Eve able to hear and believe before they were removed from the Garden.
  • Carleton - In Reply - 10 months ago
    His love reigns! Good night brother Spencer.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi Gigi.

    You said you disagree with me about his natural abilities. He was a very intelligent man prior to his conversion with many skills and abilities that God used.

    And you said you don't think Paul is meaning in the verses I quoted that he was illiterate, nor unskilled with language or reason prior to conversion.

    Re examine my post, I didn't say either of those things.

    Here's all I said; Paul in his "Natural mind/ Wisdom persecuted Christians and did not understand the things of God.

    Referring to this verse.

    1 Timothy 1:13-14.

    And IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF!! That wasn't a blessing.

    Everything else I posted that you disagree with was scripture I copied pasted and posted.

    The emphasis is that NO! God doesn't need anything intellectual from anyone and nor does he seek out those things.

    The reason being is that we will do exactly what you are displaying now. Glory man and not God.

    Listen to Paul again here in

    1 Corinthians 2:1-4.

    And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

    FOR I DETERMINED NOT TO KNOW ANY THING AMONG YOU! save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

    AND MY SPEECH AND MY PREACHING WAS NOT WITH ENTICING WORDS OF MAN'S WISDOM, BUT IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER:

    Paul says he came to them as someone Knowing nothing!

    This section of scripture Parallels with the passage you disagree with in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

    When we are born again we start out as babes in Christ and we feed on the sincere milk of the word whereby we grow, as Peter mentioned in his epistle.

    The Holyspirit is the most neglected member of the Godhead amongst the Church,

    That's why there is so much ignorance in the word of God.

    There's many verses that disagree with you

    Philippians 3:4-8.

    So I disagree with your take that God blessed and prepared Paul with intellect to prepare him for ministry.

    GB.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Apparently I have done it again!

    When I said "God set aside his intellect and spoke plainly so it wouldn't affect the work of God.

    I meant Paul set aside his intellect and spoke plainly so it wouldn't affect the work of God.

    This is why I participate much when I am working.

    Goodnight and God bless.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    This is why I DONT participate much when I am working. SMH

    Goodnight and God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 10 months ago
    S. Spencer, I do not disagree with the Scriptures you quoted at all. Paul is saying that he was not putting forward to those he preached to his own words, but the words of the Holy Spirit as he was anointed to do so. though very intelligent, he submitted to the anointing of the Holy Spirit. He was not looking to impress anyone with his natural abilities, but to impress them with the need for salvation in Christ.

    As one reads the epistles of Paul it is very apparent that he is one God had gifted in communicating in speech and writing. He did not all of a sudden become literate and effective in these things upon conversion. He says elsewhere where he was trained by Gamaliel, so he could read and write easily.

    Steven, my concern here is that you seem to be are denigrating the value of being intelligent in your replies to me. I do agree that we cannot be puffed up in our own knowledge or prideful of our talents. I was not doing that as you imply. On the flip side, we cannot be anti-intellectual in our approach to spiritual things either. Both intellectualism and anti-intellectualism are detrimental to any believer. We are to be balanced in this area and humble enough to know that we need to abide by the counsel of the Holy Spirit in all matters in our lives. But we are not to speak badly about talents God has given us. They are gifts and blessings and we should view them as such, knowing that these, along with all aspects of our persons and abilities are to be submitted to the workings of the Holy Spirit.

    I don't think we really have anything to continue discussing here. I stand by what I have written and it is fine if you stand by what you have written. I think the issue is in how you interpret what I have written due to your predisposition about the topic of intellectual gifts. You see them as a negative. I see them as a positive as long as one uses them in obedience to God's will and direction.

    We can leave this be for now.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi Gigi.

    Where we had differences is when you said you disagree with me and said, Paul was a very intelligent man prior to his conversion with many skills and abilities THAT GOD USED AFTER HIS CONVERSION.

    We both agree he was an intelligent man.

    But my original answer to Gema Question "where did Paul get this specific information from at that time ? I guess Paul was wise for his time.

    My answer was he Got it from Christ, But would only understand the things of God by the Holyspirit.

    His Wordly wisdom that he possessed knew not the things of God.

    God set aside his intellect and spoke plainly so it wouldn't affect the work of God.

    Paul said let him that Glory Glory in the Lord.

    "The minute we put our eyes on the minister we take our eyes off the Lord.

    This is a big deal in the Church today.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Good day, S. Spencer.

    Please go back and read my original reply to Jema. In it I said that he received these revelations straight from

    Christ when he was 3 years in the desert. This agrees with what you said in this reply.

    I said that Paul was intellectually gifted. You said he was brilliant. We agree on this.

    The difference here is that I believe that God used the natural talents He had created in Paul in His ministry once he was converted.

    You say that God used none of these natural talents after conversion.

    So, we disagree on this matter. That's o.k.

    The rest of what you posted about me was unnecessary and demeaning of my character. You do not know my mind or heart when I was replying to you. Only God does. I submit to the Holy Spirit as you do. So, I take offense at you presuming to know my mind and heart and for slandering me on this forum.

    But I do forgive you and love you in Christ. We both know that love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

    Let's move on from this thread. It would be best to do so.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi Gigi,

    I remember having this debate in the past.

    You are twisting my words here.

    And changing the narrative.

    I didn't say Paul became intellectual when he received the Holyspirit.

    I believe Paul was a brilliant man before he became a Christian.

    I'm saying everything counted as worthy to him before, he now counts it as dung.

    That's what he said!

    And he didn't figure anything out of the things of God by his worldly, wisdom.

    In fact his worldly wisdom thought that the preaching of the cross was foolishness to the point where he persecuted Christians.

    This is why we glorify God because he can take murderers like Paul and King David and regenerate them to be a soldier for him.

    I consider myself to be a very smart man but that didn't but sickness did.

    When I was made weak, I became strong!

    Before then I got in the way of myself.

    That goes for all of us!

    You have nothing to offer God but sacrifice.

    You can be brilliant he can use you.

    But he don't have to make you brilliant to do so.

    God can get more Glory out of a rock than he can a rocket scientist.

    God did not prepare Saul with the wisdom of the world that knew not God!!

    Dear Gigi You are praising the vessel. This is a very carnal approach to scripture.

    This type of thinking, to glorify Man of any sort is not of the Spirit.

    It's a proud look.

    Some things in scripture is written plainly.

    I'm Sorry but I only can be truthful to you. I'm not partial or Passive but this is a reflection of most your discussions.

    You have a exterior understanding but no debt.

    I am not trying to insult you but you need to ask God to move you out of the way of yourself!

    As Christians we can't claim we love one another and be Passive and partial.

    And let's not lie to one another when we know constructive criticism may serve them well.

    God bless you Gigi.
  • Jema - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Yes , thankyou to everyone who has replied to me on this thread . You are correct , the best any Christian can be is a vessel , a vessel of God's love and mercy , may we all be blessed by God to be a vessel for Him to use for whatever purpose He pleases , He is righteous and we are just clay pots :) may He fill us with His Truth and may He send Christ back to us ever so soon . Thy Kingdom Come ! I knew a lady at church , older than me , who would never talk about the Truth . She would talk about only light things , the weather , her holidays , her grandchildren etc . It kind of got on my nerves a bit but I tried not to show it . Evidently I wasn't successful , one day , after she had been waffling on to me about something that was not even vaguely interesting to me , she took a deep breath , looked me straight in the eye and said : I'm sorry I talk too much and never about the things that really matter . The Truth overwhelms me and if I try to talk about it I always start to cry and I make a fool of myself . Please forgive me . I did instantly and realised that we are not all the same :) . It's easy for some of us to speak from our hearts , I always do , which is why I don't always say the right thing :) . Some of us guard our hearts more than others and tend to stick to scripture or a script because we like to keep our hearts under control . God knows us all and loves us all and accepts us all because He can use all of us in His own ways , He makes use of our own personalities , strengths and weaknesses to fulfill His purpose . I think we all have to recognise that we are not all the same and we don't have to be , we are all members of the Body of Christ but we are different members , some of us are hands , some of us are feet etc , we are all needed for the Body to fit together . This is why we have to accept that someone is Christian even if they are a bit different to us , they are still Christians and we need to treat each other with compassion and respect .
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Amen Jema.

    We make up ONE body, and correction is supposed to be for help. God administered "the gift" to the Church.

    We had nothing to bring to it!

    We need to understand what Lord means to us.

    What is he Lord over? Our lives, We live for him as he lives IN US.

    And how do he Lord over our lives?

    By his Spirit!

    We're not ready for ministry until we receive Jesus.

    God stands outside of time and he knows who will come to him.

    God's preparation for that person may start early.

    But once that preparation is displayed where the rubber meets the road, It will glorify God, Not that Person/Vessel.

    By the way;

    I made a few mistakes in my last post!

    Where I said "I consider myself to be a very smart man but that didn't but sickness did.

    Somehow I left out a word or two and never proof read this and went right on to bed.

    I meant to say, I consider myself to be a very smart man but that didn't cause any Spitual growth in my life.

    but sickness did.

    When I got sick I got serious and Christ strengthened me!

    When I was made weak, I became strong! It's a testimony hard to believe but I believe it was just for me and me only. Not one to share.

    When I retired my two small businesses, I began to grow spiritually and like most of us, I have a long way to go.

    Before then I got in the way of myself.

    We start out as empty vessels!

    We need the filling of the Holyspirit and The word of God every step of the way.

    When one emphasize in their doctrine there is no need for the Holyspirit as if they have already been supernaturally gifted with worldly wisdom, they're actually saying there is no need for God!!

    And next you will see glory seeking and pride in their walk.

    We're sowing to the flesh!

    our ability to do good in our own power with our bodies, is poisoned with sin. It can't grow the good crop of righteousness and eternal life.

    We've all been guilty of this I sure.

    It's a life time struggle to get rid of pride.

    This is a very important topic.

    Back to work.

    GB
  • Jema - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Thank you , yes , we are all of us ' works in progress' and brothers and sisters in Christ . I try to remember that every Christian I meet has their own personal relationship with God through Christ and we are all at different stages on our journey towards His Kingdom . We must not discourage each other along the way , I'm not the same Christian that I was even two years ago and I'm guessing that's true for most of us . We are learning and growing all the time and must respect each others journey and remember that others may be a bit behind us or a bit ahead of us . We are not in competition with each other and we should be uplifting encouraging and supporting each other along the way . This world is full of awful people who will drag us down and cause us all kinds of pain and sufferings , that shouldn't be how it is between fellow Christians . Jesus died for me , but not just for me , for you and you and you also , I must keep this in mind when posting to people on here . Jesus loves you and even if you get on my nerves sometimes I must must must love you also :) ! You are my brother or my sister , you belong to Christ and he wants you in his Father's Kingdom , so I must treat you with affection and kindness . For his sake we must be patient and kind to each other even if we believe that others are in some way in the wrong we must still be kind . As I said , we are all works in progress , none more than me :) .
  • GiGi - In Reply - 10 months ago
    S. Spencer

    I am going to overlook most of what you posted her concerning me.

    But I do want to point out that you here admit that you think Paul was a brilliant man. That is what I said in my original response to the lead of this thread. And when I said it, you began debating me. We both agree that our own abilities mean nothing if not brought under the authority and work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, I conclude that this whole debate is needless. You did not need to go down this road with me. I don't know why you did. But as it is, I am done with this discussion with you. I will consider what you have said of me. I am certainly open for criticism, but I was not in any way was speaking from a carnal position nor praising man rather than God.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi Gigi.

    Yes God blessed the Apostles, including Paul with wisdom of words, But until AFTER they were converted!

    Paul in his "Natural mind/ Wisdom persecuted Christians and did not understand the things of God.

    Listen to Paul in his own words.

    1 Timothy 1:13-14.

    Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I DID IT IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF.

    And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ.

    Paul said he did it "IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF!! That wasn't a blessing.

    Here again.

    1 Corinthians 2:4.

    1 Corinthians 2:6

    1 Corinthians 2:12.

    1 Corinthians 2:14-15.

    1 Corinthians 1:26-31.For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

    And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

    That no flesh should glory in his presence.

    But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Dear S. Spencer. While I agree that Paul prior to conversion did not understand the gospel and the spiritual things of God in Christ, I disagree with you about his natural abilities. He was a very intelligent man prior to his conversion with many skills and abilities that God used after his conversion in Paul's ministry in addition to giving Paul spiritual knowledge, wisdom, and understanding of the gospel after conversion.

    I don't think Paul is meaning in the verses you quoted that he was illiterate, nor unskilled with language or reason prior to conversion. He was indicating that intelligence, oratory and linguistic skills, skill at reasoning were not profitable towards salvation.

    God causes some people to be born with exceptional abilities that He intends to use for His kingdom once a person is converted. Paul was one such person who had extraordinary skills. I happen to have two sons that are in the "gifted" range intellectually. These exceptional intellectual abilities were not aquired as they grew. They were born this way. It was evident early in infancy in their problem solving skills and early language acquisition. There are a number of people in in my family that are such. My uncle was a mechanical genius. These abilities are given by God and are not to be denigrated, but acknowledged as good. However, no amount of 'giftedness' ensures salvation nor brings them to salvation. My uncle was a Mormon until his death. Salvation is a work of God. But once one is saved, these exceptional abilities can be well used for kingdom purposes, as Paul's were so used. We have his writings compiled to make up most of the New Testament epistles that include the majority of doctrines of the Christian faith taught and expounded upon for good reason. He was chosen for this and gifted for this work innately and with spiritual gifts after conversion. God used both ways to equip Paul for the work He had predestined for him to do.

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  • Jema - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi guys and thanks so much for your both excellent replies to me , I enjoyed and appreciated them both . The thing that puzzles me is : 'promised before the world began' , where did Paul get this specific information from at that time ? I guess Paul was wise for his time , we know because we have the full Bible , old and new and we can discern the big picture . We can recognise that it was God's perpose all along , to creat a people who would love Him and want to be with Him , where and how did Paul find this out ? Can we find scripture that Paul would have had access to that would point him in this direction ? We get all of our info from the Bible so where did Paul learn this from ? It must be that Paul was well blessed in understanding , wisdom and God's Holy Spirit , that he was able to discern this without the benefit of the new testament writings . Thanks again for the pearls :) .
  • GiGi - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hello Jema,

    Paul was indeed richly blessed. He was given revelation on these things when He was in Arabia for 3 years where Christ appeared to Him and taught him these things.

    Paul was a very learned man, being taught by Gamaliel, a member of the Sanhedrin when Paul was growing up. He also was given a mind that could reason well, gain expertise in using language to explain knowledge ot others and a gift oratory finesse in addressing crowds effectively. God had blessed him with these talents and when he was converted and filled with the Holy Spirit, God used these talents along with spiritual gifts to be an effective and forceful witness to those he was given to speak concerning the gospel and Jesus Christ.

    How blessed we are of God through His work in Paul.
  • Fredscanlan - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Paul was a chosen vessel. As you have said before His nature was inbred in the things of the law, a Pharisee of Pharisee, from the tribe of Benjamin. With this knowledge why didn't He recognize the truth of Christ ,through the prophets words. Was it because it wasn't accepted as the truth by the Jews? Peer pressure to go ahead ,killing those who were believers?

    That in itself would be enough to convert anyone that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Imagine, even so today the prominent Jews reject Christ, they say He made Himself equal unto God. What is it the Jew fears in the knowledge of Christ! What is it they deny even today? Perhaps the truth is what they hate! The truth that their sins are revealed, that they cannot go about doing what they will and when they will! Not only the Jew but the Gentile.

    Have you experienced the hate that flows toward a believer , even within the church today! A true Christian will be subject even as Paul was! I posted on the church's facebook recently, and was brought before an elder because of where I made my post! Even tho it was clearly from the holy Spirit, it offended some, or maybe just Him.

    Even as Paul was put in jail, they wanted Him silenced. You shall find this to be the truth as more and more are being deceived everyday.

    There is envy, backbiting, even hate in a congregation that is not centered in the Gospel! Hold fast therefore unto the things we have been taught. Not giving into fables, but glorifying your God in heaven!
  • GiGi - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Well said, Fred,

    And the desire of my heart is to glorify God in my life.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi again Jema.

    I left out the most important aspect!

    Even though the Apostles walked, saw, and heard Jesus in person, they couldn't perceive the spiritual truth.

    They had to wait on the Holyspirit.

    John 16:13-14.

    Bless you
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi Jema.

    Thank you.

    Paul git his revelation directly fron Christ! Galatians 1:11-12.

    God bless.

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  • S Spencer - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi Jema.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

    This Idea here is to rest upon.

    We can rest upon eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

    Greek, "elpis"

    which is a primary word (to anticipate usually with pleasure);

    expectation (abstract or concrete) or confidence: - faith

    We use the word hope in a different way.

    I hope this helps. "Catch my drift?

    God bless.
  • Carleton - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi Jema and brother Spencer, For me, it is hard to look at one verse alone sometimes. I like the thought of the rest and hope that can renewed in us by the promise since the beginning was made. Later in the next chapters it is clear that this hope and rest was renewed by the Son for a good purpose, a peculiar people, by grace in the Hope or Rest and by the Mercy of God for peaceable good works towards mankind until the reappearing of Jesus Christ. It is a good conversation!



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