Genesis Chapter 19 Discussion

  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    That question may always remain a mystery to us, though I'm sure the name, 'Essenes' might come up often in your travels in that area. All the best Gregory, as you excitedly embark on this very memorable journey - hope it will turn out to be everything you hoped & planned for.
  • Gregory - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    Thank you for your reply Chris.

    Just curious as they say they are not sure who wrote the scrolls and...just a thought.

    By His Grace I will be with Maranatha Tours from October 30th thru November 9th from Dan To Beersheba. We are scheduled to see the caves where The Dead Sea Scrolls were found and time permitting, (we will) go to where the Fire and Brimstone came down.

    Yes, the excitement is mounting daily.

    Thank you,

  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    I don't believe these caves are the same, Gregory. We do know the location of the Qumran caves where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found as there is an established site & national park there, but of the exact location of the cave where Lot & his daughters dwelt none can be sure, but the best theory around, I've given below.

    The Qumran caves are located approximately NW of the Dead Sea, whereas Sodom & Gomorrah were presumed to be located to the South of the Dead Sea on the eastern flank (Sodom, in the area of ancient Zoar, was located some miles above Gomorrah). So when Lot fled Sodom, he & his daughters would have headed further east to find the cave, and from there he would have looked across to Sodom & south to Gomorrah, seeing the cities and the plain going "up as the smoke of a furnace" ( Genesis 19:28). I'm sorry that this information is the best I could find & certainly not meant to be definitive.
  • Gregory on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    Are the caves that Lot and his daughters dwelt in, the caves where they found the Dead Sea scrolls ?
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    Hi Ken. What you read in Genesis 19:5, is what we would term a euphemism, i.e. a word or phrase that softens the actual wording which may sound harsh to some. So when the men of Sodom came to Lot's door wanting the two visitors to be brought out so "they might know them", means, that these Sodomites (young & old) were of homosexual bent & wanted to sexually engage with these visitors. Such was the condition of that city, given to all manner of evil & not just homosexuality, which necessitated the outpouring of the Anger of the LORD upon them.
  • Ken Brown on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    What was did it mean in verse 5 when the men said they wanted the two men to come out so they cam know them.
  • Suze - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    In those days there was no king in Israel , everyone did what was right in his own eyes , this isn't talking about the likes of David or Saul etc , this is referring to God I believe , He wasn't King in Israel's heart , that why there was so much craziness , a bit like now .
  • Snlopez - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    I appreciate your explanation. Very good. Thank you!
  • Teaching our Kids the Bible - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    The Book of Deuteronomy chapter 11 is the one I was remembering. It has all the verses about parents teaching their children the Bible.

    A lot of people ask about Lot and what he allowed to happen. I wonder why.

    This might be one to add to the new site for numerous posts on a subject. I have a folder in notes, called People of the Bible. Might be a good topic on the KJV room :D
  • Suze - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    Fab post Mishael , thank you .
  • Richard H Priday - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    An attempt for further response to the question.

    Question #1-It is entirely possible that Lot knew that there weren't any men who were actually interested in women anymore; hence it was either a stalling tactic or meant to show some sort of accommodation in order to save his own life or perhaps keep the son in laws from being attacked. We shouldn't forget Lot's original desire to go the fertile valley which was visually appealing. Clearly; the men were called in because Lot was familiar with this type of behavior; perhaps he had tried this before.

    It is obvious for the sake of his own family he should have left there a long time before that; and more so since Abraham would have been there to support him if necessary. It also should be noted that Lot's wife isn't mentioned in this account which seems odd as well. We need to keep in mind how it is stated that Lot was "vexed with the evil" ( 2 Peter 2:7-8). He chose apparently not to speak out so the world's riches for a time had paralyzed him. (also answers question #2).

    Question #3-Actually; it was the other way around; his son in laws acted like he was mocking them; they took it lightly. They were probably too comfortable there as well; certainly they didn't harbor a fear of the Lord as THEY were not mentioned either as trying to stop the mob; clearly something was amiss there.

    Question #4. The other comment is good with reasoning and scriptures. We need to remember; that first of all these women had lost eligible men which likely took quite some time to find; and they may have thought the whole world was destroyed. They wanted children; without which at that time would make them sense they lost all value. It was also before Moses laws on marriage or relations with family and his wife was dead. Perhaps they thought almost all men had no interest in women anymore as well; living there. Not excusing it; but fear was their primary thought; not illicit sex for the fun of it.

    Question #3
  • Eljer777 - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    Lots greed made him leave Abraham his uncle and a man of God. His greed made him do business with Sodom and eventually move there. He was a man of means and had some authority. He lived there for many years and raised and married off some daughters,no boys,but still had two girls at home. His wife almost certainly was from Sodom and grew up there. He apparently never witnessed to his family and he did not live a clean life hence his son in laws mocked him. The two girls grew up in the filth of Sodom and their morals were non existent. I suspect he wanted to leave but the wife would have none of it, she probably had all her family there. The reason I say that is Hebrews said it vexed his righteous soul being there. Also, keep in mind I think he rarely kept in touch with Abraham.
  • LOTS MISTAKE REARING HIS DAUGHTERS_Gen.18 - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    I don't believe it's an oversight that God did not tell us the names of Lot's two daughters. Their story is inextricably linked to their father's actions and has implications not only for young people who find themselves in difficult situations, but a warning to every parent. It's a sad story in many ways, but also reveals God's merciful and redemptive character. We don't know their names because they could be any of us, were we to find ourselves in the similar circumstances.

    [Don't Underestimate the Power of a Sinful Environment to Sear the Conscience]

    In our modern culture, we are quick to judge these two young women and assure ourselves we would never resort to such desperate actions. We would be wise to learn from their experience.

    Lot's daughters had grown up in a city where sexual immorality was commonly accepted. They were engaged to young men who scoffed at God's warning. God told Abraham, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave" ( Genesis 18:20). Apparently, there were not even ten righteous people in the city. Being surrounded by such influences had obviously seared the consciences of these two women; their idea to have sexual relations with their father seemed a logical and acceptable solution.

    Left to ourselves, the human heart is deceitful and desperately wicked ( Jeremiah 17:9). Without the restraining and redeeming influence of God's Word and His Holy Spirit, we can't imagine the depths of sin to which we might go. Lot had failed to teach his daughters the truth about who God is; they were simply acting in accordance with the lifestyle and knowledge they had been given.

    Titus 1:14 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

    Deuteronomy 30

    [TEACH your children Bible morals]
  • Snlopez on Genesis 19 - 1 year ago
    Why, if Lot was a good man, he offers his own daughters to be taken instead of the visitors?

    What father, in their right mind would give their daughters to a mob of man?

    Why did lot mock when he spoke to his sons in law?

    What kind of daughters were these to do what they did to their father?
  • Richard H Priday - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    I suppose the question is whether the theoretical understanding of those who are producing fruit worthy of repentance (truly saved) is the issue; or your own walk. I feel it is important to point out the greatest enemy is our self love. We deem that something in our flesh is good; this can slip very easily into humanism. Our experiences with God can be confused with emotions which give us natural enjoyment in the flesh but are transient at best. Reliance upon our feelings to dictate what experiences are from the Holy Spirit of course without spiritual discernment can lead us astray. However; if we ask God as the book of James states He gives us wisdom. If we seek the truth; we will find it. As my last post suggested in response-it is the conviction of sin; judgment and righteousness the Spirit reveals to us; often in the presence of other saints who are more mature and therefore have a greater measure of faith and/or the Spirit. I don't want to say that there is no feeling with the Lord; it is better described as existent without involving the flesh; or outside our own created world in our minds as it were. We do learn to recognize it; however if we are His sheep we recognize and hear His voice and also when strangers are teaching falsehood we sense danger and get away.

    I thought it prudent to encourage you also that Christ has overcome this world. There is no fear in true love. ( 1 John 4:18). Not quoted perfectly; but my point is that the enemy continually likes to accuse us before God. The fact that our Father doesn't change ( James 1:17-18) as the "Father of lights" is different than the enemy; who likes to dangle a carrot in front of us; then torment us when we fall for it. I will keep you in prayer as to your living situation-and that the promises of Psalm 91 can be applied to your life. In general; it is always best to keep God above people; yet we have to trust God to bring who He chooses in our time of need. Stay in fellowship.
  • Dgjot - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    Thank you, Richard. I'm still confused but I will meditate on the things written in this discussion thread.
  • Richard H Priday - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    Your analogies all were as the parable of the sower. Those who have the seed stolen by Satan never really hear it; those who hear and immediately fall away when trials come are as you would say "blew it off" and the third those who knew it and "chucked it" as it were when the riches and snares of this life choked out the effectiveness. The problem with this analogy is that is a bit oversimplistic; in that we all start off with hearing the Word; and go through testings of the temptations of this world; the flesh and the devil. Those who are of "His seed" who endure until the end have the Spirit chastising those who are truly His own. Those who are saved truly are dead to their old selves and eventually produce some fruit; but some are clearly recieving rewards to a greater or lesser extent; and some are saved as through the fire.

    Of course; there are those like Judas Iscariot who were part of His ministry; but never really with Him; because they were in it for other reasons than loving God. Any spiritual "experience" that is above the giver of gifts that is desired leaves one open to the "angel of light" Satan Himself. God can perhaps heal someone through a miracle despite the fact that some either deliberately fabricate miracles for financial gain; or are directly infested with demons that for a time seem to work wonders. You shall know them by their fruits (Matth. 7:16-22). I would state clearly that anyone who is living in a state of unrepentant sin cannot simultaneously do works of righteousness. Many are also in churches as a pride thing; family loyalty; socializing; or to make themselves feel good about themselves that they've "done their duty."

    The clearest thing I can say that is in God's presence; which often means being around those TRULY filled with the Spirit of God; sin, righteousness and judgment to come ( John 16:8) is made clear; and we are driven to a godly sorrow leading to repentance. ( 2 Cor. 7:10). God will reveal this to you
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    Thank you Dgjot, I share similar sentiments to you. Yet, I'm comforted knowing that whatever evil there may be around me or of the plans & devices of wicked men against me, the Lord truly is in full knowledge & control over the situation. We should not be unduly weighed down in mind & spirit of 'what could happen'. Rather, our hearts must be raised above what we see or don't see on Earth and raised to see the Lord of Heaven who promises us His Care: 2 Thessalonians 3:2,3; Psalm 18:2-6; Psalm 32:5-7;

    Psalm 125:1; Proverbs 18:10, are a few verses that should encourage all of us.

    We can indeed be bold, going forth in the Name of the Lord. Until we go out in faith, facing the enemy & his followers head on with the Love & Grace of the Lord, we will never fully know or experience the Lord's Arm of Salvation. This is not the time to live in fear, but to wisely use the time the Lord gives us to stand bodly for Him & exude His Righteousness amongst a people who have no knowledge or desire for it. There may be evil intent from some, but "Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day", even as the Lord opened up the way (the Red Sea) for His children to pass over ( Exodus 14:13,14). The Lord has all of Heaven's resources ready to come to our aid - only faith can take hold of them & release them, that we might all stand in awe of the Lord of Glory.

    And yes, we need to exercise great care when seeing God's Work before us. Many saw it in that day but accused Jesus of working by the power of Satan. There's no hope for those who continually refuse God or acknowledge His Mercy shown to them & others. We should not be hasty in condemning a work we may know very little about - maybe doing so to our hurt.
  • Dgjot - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    "......His wife sort of represents the parable where Jesus said that

    he who turned his back on the plow was unworthy ( Luke 9:62)....

    Those who are caught up with the cares of this life; and ensnared by riches will never produce fruit and therefore are unsaved according to the parable of the sower. "

    Define "unsaved". Do you mean someone who heard the Gospel and rejected it right away or heard it and blew it off or are you talking about people who knew the truth and then totally chucked it and went back to their old, sinful ways?

    Many "christians" have the appearance of Godliness (like going to Church every Sunday, or going to/having Bible studies,

    or bragging about how much they fast and pray, or do good deeds to be seen by men, or get a high by "speaking in tongues"

    or ......)

    Matthew 7:20-23

    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Just what is, "doing the will of my Father which is in heaven."??

    I'm confused.
  • Richard H Priday - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    There is an excellent tract called "Remember Lot's Wife" in the Chapel Library series. Well worth reading. 2 Peter 2:7-8 indicates that Lot was righteous; even if he wasn't at the maturity level of Abraham listed in Hebrews 11. Clearly; Lot was compromised offering his own daughters to appease those who wanted to molest the angels (who appeared as men). He and his wife; no doubt were enticed by the fertile land of the valley as opposed to where Abraham ended up in tents. He was hesitant leaving; and after the angels finally prodded him; he left town but wanted to stop short of the mountains. Finally; after God's patience was demonstrated-the event occurred and then he was afraid to remain where he originally requested and fled to the mountains.

    His wife sort of represents the parable where Jesus said that he who turned his back on the plow was unworthy ( Luke 9:62). Those who are caught up with the cares of this life; and ensnared by riches will never produce fruit and therefore are unsaved according to the parable of the sower. As to her eternal fate; I am not entirely sure it can be determined.

    As to the daughters; their fear was that perhaps the whole world was destroyed. They got their father drunk; which wasn't exactly the same as seducing them out of fear of no offspring. It is possible at that time also there was no rule set about having such relations; if it is a sin it is not on the level with their son in laws who likely were engaged to them only at the time and disgracefully acted like the angels were mocking them. It should also be remembered that the rampant sexual behavior probably made eligible men a rarity in that region.

    In any case; this incident shows us that some escape as through the fire and others are wise enough to be taken out as Enoch and Elijah. May we be the same at the rapture. God knows what He is doing; thankfully all those who are in Him will be saved. Let us be careful not to lose our rewards- Rev. 3:11
  • Dgjot - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago

    Thank you. I go nuts thinking about things like this. When Jesus walked among us, and the Jews saw his miracles first hand, they accused Him of doing miracles by the power of the devil. (Is that what blasphemy-against-the-Holy-Spirit is??)

    All of us born after Jesus ascended into heaven long to see some sort of miracle, but WE live by faith. Not by sight. Sometimes I get discouraged. I want the idol worshipping, rebellious, wicked reprobates to STOP what they are doing, but nobody down here is able to stop them. Prison and the death penalty are looked at as too inhumane, so murderers and rapists are allowed to go free.

    Ecclesiastes 8:11

    Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

    It's to the point where I'm afraid to leave my house and afraid to stay in it. Know-what-I-mean?
  • Chris - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    Hi Dgjot. Nice to see you back here again. I've also thought about the question you ask. I feel that it's because God won't judge us for what we might do in the future (i.e. our future sins don't stand under His Judgement), but that present sins are accountable & stand under His Judgement. Lot's wife & daughters were willing to leave Sodom as directed by the angels; so some faith in God's Directive is seen here. But it wasn't long before Mrs. Lot "looked back" to where her heart was longing to be, & then later, Lot's daughters succumb to the need "to preserve seed of our father", having no family to take into the future. It says a 'lot' about how as believers we need to be watchful for entrance of sin into our lives, and also to be content with what we have (meaning, that we shouldn't feel pressured to 'keep up with the Jones' ') & living with the health & material blessings we do have, however, minimal they might be.
  • T. Levis - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    2Peter 3:9, Exodus 34:6, Numbers 14:18, Genesis 19:37, Deuteronomy 23:3,

    Ecclesiastes 7:8, Psalms 86:15, Romans 2:4, 1Corinthians 4:5, Ruth 1:16,22, Ruth 4:11-22, Luke 3:23-38, note Luke 3:32

    Psalms 130:3,4, Isaiah 54:8,

    LORD help us all be faithful
  • Dgjot on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    Why didn't the Angels just take Lot and leave his wife and daughters behind? The husbands of the daughters chose to stay.

    The wife "looked back" (symbolic of yearning for the old way of life) and was turned into a pillar of salt.

    The daughters, who had just been pulled out of Sodom by the hands by Angels, didn't have enough faith to believe God would find them husbands, and seduced their father.

    "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

    Jesus said, "....blessed are those who believe but have not seen."

    How could people be so faithless when they've seen God or Jesus in action?????
  • Richard H Priday on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    The story of Lot's escape and in fact the theme of this whole chapter is the pathetic example of Lot; who is amazingly described in the New Testament as a rightous man; in fact who was "tormented" seeing what was going on in that city. It is hard to escape the Laodicean parallel here of those who think they have need of nothing; but are poor; miserable; blind and naked.

    Verse 8 with the response to the hordes of Sodomite ready to rape the angels and Lot himself is just disgusting. His "consolation prize" of the two daughters; already at least espoused if not married to other men to save his integrity was perhaps known to be a ruse to all parties concerned; he must have known they weren't interested in natural relations with women. Nonetheless; it demonstrates weak character.

    Things don't get any better afterwards either. Lot diddle dalleys around and finally he and his family are taken by the hand and pretty much dragged out of town. Then comes the pathetic request to go to Zoar; despite the clear command to go to the mountains which amazingly the Lord allows the angels to permit. Finally comes Lot's wife turning back just when she almost escaped and dying. After all that it appears Lot was shocked enough to leave for the mountains after all afraid that God may destroy that city as well I would suspect. Finally; the daughters losing hope of having children by any man (thinking perhaps all men were dead in that part of the world) got their father drunk one by one and indeed got pregnant. Apparently, the wine was an important commodity and it would appear Lot was in the habit of drinking too much as a result; no doubt of living in a place like Sodom. Let us be thankful here for the grace of God; for those who seem too far gone in sin can be VERY backslidden believers; sometimes only God knows but eventually He chastises all those He loves.
  • Jcbu undercover - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    God bless Jocelynnne Mathew 18:2-3 And Jesus called a little child unto him,and set him in the midst of them,3 And said Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted,and become as little children,ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.We have grandchildren that have drawn pictures in the books it was so special.But they do need mature guidance.One of the poems was written to our grandchildren in the second book.Grandparents house.
  • Rick Mentzer - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    Jocelynne Bell I thought quite a bit about this and considered these Numbers 23:19 and 1 Kings 8:56 the

    same thing applies to us in our day and time, His Word believed or not Will never Fail!
  • Jocelynne Bell - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    Sorry that was my sibling. She's 10
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    Jocelynne Bell,

    Only the Father knows the day Jesus will return, Mark 13:32, we are told to watch Matthew 25:13. How do we know Jesus died in the first place, we look back, God said 100s of years before it would happen. Isaiah 7:14 Scripture points to how he will be born, and also to one of the names given to Christ: Immanuel, Matthew 1:23. Micah 5:2 This scripture tells where He will be born and from what tribe, which was Judah, Matthew 2:5 Luke 2:4.

    Psalm 22:7-8 This scripture tells how they will ridicule Him, Matthew 27:40-43. Psalm 22:16-18 the same refers to the actual crucifixion of Christ, Matthew 27:35,39,41,49. Isaiah 53:5 tells they will pierce Him for our transgressions, and by his wounds, we are healed, John 19:34.

    I could list more scripture that was written 100s of years before that is clear that it was Jesus our savior that was told of before and what would happen to Him, and we can be sure He will return the same way as He ascended Acts 1:10-11 Revelation 1:7

    God bless and have faith; If prophecy told it would happen 100s of years before and it happened have no doubt it is true. He is coming back and will set the kingdom upon the earth.

  • Rick Mentzer - In Reply on Genesis 19 - 2 years ago
    Jocelynne Bell Being born again because that would be impossible unless Jesus Christ died resurrected and

    Sat at Gods Right hand completing His Ministry and also the proof is manifesting that spiritual power given of christ

    one of those being speaking in tongues one of the evidences. It would be impossible to do that same with all the

    others. All this is part of the witness of the resurrection! Blessed are those who have not seen and believe!

    Before he was resurrected in Mathew 27:62-66 the bad guys ask pilate to post guards and to seal the tomb and

    in Mathew 8:11-15 when it was reported that he was missing the soldiers were paid off to lie and say His body

    was stolen. Still nothing Will ever stop Gods Will being done, even in our lives when we rise up and believe.

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